Compensation

[getterdone]

Hi eccentrically 1, I've always thought that somehow politics played a roll in Besslers unsuccesful attemps to sell his wheel.

At the head of the Royal Sociaty of Science sat Newton, his claim to fame was his laws of gravity. Those that seen JB's wheel where well respected and we know that news of JB's wheel did make to Newton, yet there's no evidence that he ever commented on it.

If JB's wheel nad been gravity driven, would that contridict Newton's law. Where Gartner and Wagner trying to impress the Sociaty by pubicly calling Bessler a freud.

Historians tell us that Newton tryed to erase Robert Hook from history because he said that Newton tryed to take credit for one of his discoveries. Could he have also got rid of anything about JB's wheel?

These are just some thoughts based on nothing

[Stewart]

There was a report that you could hear it run the whole time, remember the man who went to see it but only got to hear it run in the castle.

I am unaware of any such report. Do you have a source?

I think daxwc is referring to Meetsma's testimony in DT. It's in old Dutch and I've had a stab at translating it but it needs more work and I don't have time to research it further at the moment...

Here's the original text:

Op't PERPETUMEUBILLE, geinventeert
door de Heer Raad ORFFYREUS, en van syn
WelEdele Kunstlievende gemaakt op het
Slot Wysensteyn by Cassel.

EEn selve Gewicht, te maaken swaar en licht.
Licht en swaar te maaken syn Wonder-raare Saken!

Te Meer in eennen Rond;
Seer dichte toegeslooten, soo aardiglick gestooten,
Om op syn As te drayen, ja rechts en lincks te swayen,
Waarlyck een schoone Vond.

Ik heb den Ganck gehoort:
Doch heb het niet gesien, ten Proev van yder een;
Was't door de Vorst versegeld, om den Loop wel geregeld,
Te brengen immer voort.

De Kunst die is gewis;
Ik kan het vast betoge, voor Leege en voor Hooge,
Dit's myn Getuigenis.

G.M. Meetsma.

...and my rough translation ('/' separates possible word choices):

On the PERPETUUM MOBILE, invented
by Mr. Councillor ORFFYRE, and made by his/its
honourable art-lover in
Castle Weissenstein at Cassel.

A self/same weight, to make heavy and light.
Light and heavy to make his strange thing!

The sea/lake/more* in a/one round/circle;
very sealed shut, so nicely/curiously thumped/bumped/knocked,
to turn around upon its axle, indeed to swing/turn to the right and to the left,
truly a beautiful invention.

I have heard the run/movement:
however have not seen it, at the test/inspection of everyone;
it was sealed up by the prince, in order to always produce/foster,
the well regulated run.

The art is genuine;
I can firmly assert it, solemnly/by_all_that_is_holy,
this is my testimony.

G.M. Meetsma.

* I think the majority of it makes sense but I'm really struggling with this line. 'Meer' has a capital first letter indicating it's a noun. 'Meer' as a German noun means sea/lake etc., but I can't find any other meaning in Dutch as a noun, although it can also mean 'more' in Dutch, but I wouldn't have thought it would be capitalised if it meant that. I'll let you know when I figure it out, or if anyone can help then please let me know.

Stewart

[jim_mich]

My wife is of Netherlands Dutch ancestry. My wife's grandparents spoke mostly Netherlands Dutch. My wife's parents spoke mostly English with a few Dutch words thrown in at random. Being that my parents came from England many years ago, I speak American English.

I learned that the Dutch people, even when speaking English tend to truncate parts of their sentences. My wife's family would be discussing something and I would be totally in the dark as to what they were saying because they would use broken and incomplete sentences. They assumed everyone knew what they meant. Of course everyone did, except this outsider English boy that had just married into a Netherlands Dutch family.

I think this gives me some insight into what Meetsma was saying concerning the word 'Meer'. First look at the lines just preceding it:

A self/same weight, to make heavy and light.
Light and heavy to make his strange thing!

It would seem that 'same' would be the preferred word in this case. So here Meetsma discusses a same weight that is both heavy and light.

Then in the very next sentence he talks of "The ???? in a/one round/circle". The most common translation of meer is 'more'. Thus it seems Meetsma is saying:

The more in a circle;
very sealed shut, ...

It seems obvious to me, that Meetsma simple left out the word 'weights' and assumed anyone reading it would know that he meant more of the weights that he was discussing previously.

At least, if it were my mother-in-law speaking English but thinking Dutch, that is how I would have understood the conversation.

Of course, I might not know of what I speak.

Edit: I noticed Stewart added 'more' to the translation of meer.

[Stewart]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your thoughts. 'more' is the most obvious translation, but I don't want to overlook other possibilities especially as 'Meer' is capitalised. Some spellings of words have changed quite a bit since that was written so I want to be sure I haven't missed any possible meaning. Normally you'd use 'the same' (German: dasselbe; Dutch: hetzelfde) to point back to something you were previously talking about. Another thing to point out is that Meetsma's testimony is written in rhyme and that's why it doesn't read very well - same sort of problems we get with AP. It has an unusual rhyming style that's a bit difficult to describe but you'll work it out if you just sound out the original Dutch words (Gewicht -> en licht; maaken -> Saken; Rond -> Vond; toegeslooten -> gestooten; drayen -> swayen; gehoort -> voort; gesien -> een; versegeld -> geregeld; die is gewis -> Getuigenis; betoge -> Hooge). I'm working on a full translation of DT and I'll revisit this testimony of Meetsma's when I get to that point and I'll put a bit more time and thought into the translation of it then.

Stewart

[jim_mich]

Thank you for all you translations.

Normally you'd use 'the same' (German: dasselbe; Dutch: hetzelfde) to point back to something you were previously talking about.

But he would still need the 'more' word because he was conveying the thought of more than the one single "a self/same weight" as discussed in his previous verse. Also, the 'Meer' word is not at the end of the sentence and thus does not need to rhyme.

The word count needs to be right to maintain rhythm...

Te Meer hetzelfde in eennen Rond;

If he added additional words such as 'hetzelfde' it would break the rhythm.


Just my thoughts.

[pequaide]

Along with The Law of Gravitation are Newton’s Three Laws of Motion. Newtonian Physics conserves momentum not energy. I think Newton argued against the conservation of Energy more than any other scientist. His dispute with Leibniz was, I think, the greatest anti-energy conservation argument in history. The quarrel was mv² versus mv.

Yes: I know the hogwash about them both being right; but that bologna came around after they were both dead.

As far as Newton not responding to Bessler; Newton probably knew something of Bessler’s character; and simply dismissed him.

[Stewart]

Hi Jim

Sorry - looking back over it I see I made a mistake. 'te' doesn't mean 'the', but has the meanings: to, too, at, in, on, into, inside, over, by, per. A silly mistake as I've translated it properly elsewhere in that text. I think the translation of 'Meer' as meaning 'more' is even less likely now. As I said before the capitalisation indicates a noun. 'Te Meer' could be 'to/at/by sea' etc.

Also, the 'Meer' word is not at the end of the sentence and thus does not need to rhyme.

Sorry, yes 'Meer' isn't one of the rhymed words, my mention of the rhyming should really have been a new paragraph and was to point out the lack of full and good sentences in the text due to the poetic nature and therefore also the added difficulty in translation. As I said before it's a slightly odd rhyming style and the rhyming doesn't always occur at the end of every line. Take the stanza with 'Meer' in for example, it has the rhyming pattern ABBCCA:

A[Rond]
B[toegeslooten], B[gestooten]
C[drayen], C[swayen],
A[Vond]

Looking at the second line again where I put:
Very sealed shut, so nicely/curiously thumped/bumped/knocked,

Here's a more detailed list of word possibilities:
Very densely/tightly shut/closed/locked_up/sealed, so/therefore nicely/curiously/gently thumped/bumped/knocked/pushed,

One way of looking at that is:
Very tightly sealed, therefore gently thumped,
[the wheel was so well sealed up in the room that only a gentle/soft thumping of the weights could be heard]

I think that's the most likely, but wondered if "so gently pushed" was a possibility in referring to the light push needed to start the wheel. However, the first option seems to fit better with the first part of the sentence on that line.

Stewart

[daanopperman]

Stewart,
The Te"Meer" you are looking for is like in "Des te meer"witch translate directly and also mean the same as "All the more", he just kept to "Te Meer", the same as "more so"

[Stewart]

Hi daanopperman

Yes, perhaps I'm over thinking it. I had a PM from member Delong saying: i am a dutch speaking member and my feeling is that "te meer" meens "and above all". So I'll leave it to everyone to decided for themselves as old Dutch isn't that familiar to me and I'd need more time to study it. However, I'm still slightly concerned that the capitalisation of 'Meer' is being overlooked. I realise that it isn't something relevant to Dutch today, but all the nouns in Meetsma's testimony are capitalised. Maybe if it is referring to weights as in "many" weights that would classify as a noun in the sentence i.e. "the many". It would certainly seem to make more sense in the paragraph if it was something to do with more or many weights than something to do with the sea! Anyway, hopefully seeing the gist of the testimony has been of interest to people though.

Stewart

[daanopperman]

Stewart,

On a PerpetuMobile ,Invented
by Lord Orffyreus,and his
honorable art-lovingly made and on
lock at Wysensteyn Castle.

One and the same weight, made heavy and light,
light and heavy to be made his wondrous rare case!

More so in one round;
tightly sealed shut, so earthly pushed,
to revolve around it's axel, yes right and left swinging ,
Truly one beautiful find

I have heared through Gank:
though I have not seen, to proof of either one;
It was by the Count suggested, to test the run
as quick as possible.

A art it is true;
I can truly vow, before Low and before High,
This my witness.

Ganck must have have been a person from witch he has heard about the mobile.

[Stewart]

Hi daanopperman

Sorry to say it, but that's a pretty bad translation! Do you know any Dutch or did you just run it through Google Translate?

Stewart

[John Collins]

Sorry for not responding to the question about the link between Peter the Great and Bessler, I've been away for a few days.

The best I can do for now is to point you to my book, 'Perpetual Motion, An Ancient Mystery Solved?', which details the communications by letter between Peter's agent, Johann Daniel Schumacher, and Christian Wolff, concerning Bessler's wheel.

JC

[daanopperman]

Hi daanopperman

Sorry to say it, but that's a pretty bad translation! Do you know any Dutch or did you just run it through Google Translate?

Stewart

Stewart,
No I did not run it through anything, I am Arikaans.

[daanopperman]

Hi daanopperman

Sorry to say it, but that's a pretty bad translation! Do you know any Dutch or did you just run it through Google Translate?

Stewart

Stewart,
If I read what Geertsma wrote and I read your translation it also sound's to me a bad translation, please don't get me wrong, I am not saying you did wrong, but it as easy for me to read what Geertsma say as if I read my own language.It is translating the poem into English where the bad translation come's in, because it is a poem you can virtually play with word's you would not normally have used, yes after reading the ganck again I realized it was the sound he heard , not from a person.
Afrikaan's is a west Germanic language descended from Dutch, almost word for word the same.
T.Y.
D.O.