design claimed to be working

[Michael]

Well well Ken, you are the first beside my conversations with Stewart to also come to this agreement.

>F you have the correct design for the secret mechanism, then it should be possible to build a working PM machine with only two weights! However, I prefer to use eight as Bessler did. There are practical reasons why he would have used this number as well as numerological reasons (Bessler was an extraordinary numerologist).


and now we come back to the M.T. drawing of 16. Have you seen the actual drawing and not the altered version? If so, what are your thoughts? Do you know what is special about 1 and 6 ? Please tell me in private if you need to.

Michael

[ken_behrendt]

No, unfortunately, I have only been able to view the figures from Maschinen Tractate shown on orfyrre.com, but they appear to have been accurately done.

MT16 has one unusual weight on the left side which seems to be defying gravity...of at least it did until I realized that the weights must have been physically attached to some sort of groove in the vanes which they would then slide along.

MT1 has, of course, eight weights which is the number I am convinced was used in Bessler's one directional wheels.

MT6 appears to be rotating counter-clockwise which is opposite the usual direction Bessler usually illustrated his wheels turning it.

I have not paid too much attention to these particular illustrations because they do not agree with the design I now have. Also, I do not think any of them would provide perpetual motion.

ken

[turulato]

Does anybody here have a full WM2D program?
I downloaded the demo version and played with it for a long time and build the attached dwg. and according to the software it rotated non-stop (about 3000 frames before I cancelled), to mi surprice it just kept rotating counter-clockwise, it made me ponder because I thought if anything it would rotate clockwise as I put the weights on the right side on the perimeter of the wheel.
So either I accidentally found an arrangement that works or the WM2D is totally useless as it goes into a mathematical loop and gives false results.
Can anybody that has a full version verify this for me?
Thanks

Turulato

[ken_behrendt]

That's really odd...I agree that, since the c.g. of the balls is in the lower righthand quadrant of the wheel, it should rotate clockwise and not counter-clockwise. May be the unusual symmetry of the design somehow through off the WM2D program...but, that should not happen.

I am also interested in how you managed to save the image of the wheel you build using WM2D. I have been trying to figure out ways to save what I am building, but have had not success.

ken

[jim_mich]

I built this wheel two different ways, one using a weight sliding along a slot, and one with a ball enclosed inside boxes. Both keeled, even after being given a push. So I'm left wondering what you did with WM2D to make it continue to spin. If you gave it a BIG push and all the weights flung to the outside and are balanced then it would continue to rotate.

To save a picture of what you have built, press the 'Print Screen' key to capture a screen into windows clipboard. Then paste it into any graphics program then save it.

[coylo]

Perpetuum Mobile Principle from a 12th century Arabian manuscript

Around 1150, the Indian mathematician and astronomer Bhaskara described in his Siddhanta Siromani a wheel with containers of mercury around its circumference. He says, "This machine rotates with great power because the mercury at one side of the axle is closer that at the other." Apparently he thought this would cause continual unbalance to sustain rotation. Supposedly he didnÂ’t build and test the device, and many other authors did not make this final step as well.

Taken from http://www.hp-gramatke.net/perpetuum/index.htm

That is the Great Grandfather of PM failures.

[Jonathan]

Well yes coylo, but I assume he was just practicing.
I don't have WM2D, so all I can do is guess that turulato forgot, or didn't know, to enable friction.

[Fletcher]

Yes, he could also not have known to click each object & select "properties" & zero them out so there is no inherent torque etc built in unbeknownest. This can occur when you copy & paste objects several times.

[turulato]

Well, I guess if it has being built before and it does not work no further explanation is necessary, the only answer is that the WM2D is not as reliable as it appears. The funny thing is that I thought I had stumble into something specially because after looking at it for a while I realized that there is always 7 weights on the left-hand side versus 4 on the right-hand side. Strange in deed. I didn't expect it to keep on rotating after I drew it, I was fooling around with the program to learn its capabilities and "surprice!" I do believe however that the answer to Bessler's mechanism is not in un-balanced weights as he showed in all his drawings, what leads me to believe this is because one of the wheels turned at 50 RPM and in my experimenting I have come to know that speeds greater than 25-30 RPM will create enough centifugal force to keep the weights stuck on the perimeter of the wheel rendering them useless. I have heard of people claiming that they have a working wheel and I believe them but one of them has admitted that it is a very low torque and is looking for a way to improve it. If the guy that made this tread possible claims that his wheel works, then it probably works but from the looks of it, it is also a very low torque solution.
Keep on going, we'll eventually get it. At present I'm working on a combination of MT-44 & MT-49 that is why I had great hopes for WM2D but I guess I'll just have to build it. Wish me luck.

Turulato

[jim_mich]

To find the RPM at which centrifugal force equals weight use this formula where R = inches:

RPM = (35191.44 / R) ^ 0.5

A weight at five foot diameter ( 30 inch radius) the speed would be 34.25 RPM

A weight at three foot diameter ( 18 inch radius) the speed would be 44.22 RPM