BUOYANCY

[Dwylbtzle]

back to bessler--another word he used was "balance"
that automatically connotes gravity, also
no one in outer space is worried about balancing on anything
in fact some people have trouble in space because their sense of balance is totally freaked out, because it has become something that isn't being used any more
and the disorientation is too much for them to handle

if bessie wasn't a hoax and he wasn't using gravity he was using magic, which is fine
if yer allowing that as a possibility
i'm not ruling it out, meself, but a scientist with the normal prejudices certainly would
hey maybe he had a trained slave invisible faery on his payroll
maybe that's why he went mad and died NOT rich
if so he got what he deserved

if anything but a damn GREAT hoax, it's gotta be a gravity wheel as far as i can see
and if a gravity wheel not a "classic" stand-alone (meaning a wheel with only internal-within-the-wheel gizmos at play)
there had to be "cheat" another energy--i personally think a facility of a molecular one
the "other" energy coulda been gravity if flipped by buoyancy--which he musta arrived at by manipulating air molecules so he could get around conservation of energy
and applied from outside the wheel
but i don't see how
you could make a non-wheel gravity engine with that
but he probably used some other manipulation of certain molecules at the micro level and found a way to apply it to the system
also
some of those things--like maybe the pendulums COULDA been disinformation
there to draw yer mind away from some other thing that's so simple he was afraid everyone would guess it
MAYbe
just spitballin here

[jim_mich]

if bessie wasn't a hoax and he wasn't using gravity he was using magic, which is fine

Today we use all kinds of magic. Cell phones. TV's. Radios. Automobiles. Computers. MRI scans. Hydrogen bombs.

All of these would have been magic in Bessler's time.

there had to be "cheat" another energy--

What do you mean by cheat?
'Cheat' indicates hoax, fraud, dishonesty, that Bessler's cheated and his wheel was not what he claimed; a 'perpetual motion machine' capable of forcefully turning perpetually without any outside energy or force.

Suppose the other energy was simple manipulation of momentum and kinetic energy? Suppose it was a mechanical Maxwell's Demon that was able to move KE from a slower moving weight to a faster moving weight and thus raise the ectropy (useable energy) of the system, and then it simply used the increased available KE to rotate the wheel?

Would you think such be a cheat? Or are you saying Bessler cheated and his wheel has a hoax, not powered by moving weights like he stated, not capable of running until it wears out?

[Dwylbtzle]

Dwylbtzle wrote:
if bessie wasn't a hoax and he wasn't using gravity he was using magic, which is fine


Today we use all kinds of magic. Cell phones. TV's. Radios. Automobiles. Computers. MRI scans. Hydrogen bombs.

All of these would have been magic in Bessler's time.

WHICH IS WHY I DON'T RULE OUT THE TERM

Dwylbtzle wrote:
there had to be "cheat" another energy--


What do you mean by cheat?
'Cheat' indicates hoax, fraud, dishonesty, that Bessler's cheated and his wheel was not what he claimed; a 'perpetual motion machine' capable of forcefully turning perpetually without any outside energy or force.

Suppose the other energy was simple manipulation of momentum and kinetic energy? Suppose it was a mechanical Maxwell's Demon that was able to move KE from a slower moving weight to a faster moving weight and thus raise the ectropy (useable energy) of the system, and then it simply used the increased available KE to rotate the wheel?

Would you think such be a cheat? Or are you saying Bessler cheated and his wheel has a hoax, not powered by moving weights like he stated, not capable of running until it wears out?

i would be glad to explain
thank you for asking

i think bessler's wheel could maybe NOT have been a hoax if it was a gravity wheel

as i have explained in the "cheat" thread:
first of all, any gravity engine would not be a true PMM by the scientifically correct definition
because it uses an outside force
therefore you COULD say that that's a kinda "cheat" in itself, right there
if bessler used the words "perpetual motion" he wasn't thinking in those strict scientific terms--all he knew was that it moved perpetually--a water wheel in a river could be said to move perpetually

i am using that word cheat--you could use "helper" booster" "facilitator"
"flipper" "trick" any word to mean something that would allow any gravity engine to appear to be ONLY using gravity pushing down on a wheel evenly all over and being rotated thru the facility of internal gizmos
but it would also, in actuality--MAYBE SOMETHING HIDDEN, be using something to impell it or reset something--and that could be any number of things--boyancy--whatever
but it would add it's energy to the system from outside the wheel
so it COULD still be relying, primarily on gravity to power it, but not just because the gravity is coming down to cause the wheel to flip around, or the weights to reset themselves on the fulcrums
through internal-to-the-wheel gizmo craftiness--which is usually the standard classic "gravity wheel design" you see so many attempted, hypothesized, postulated, illustrations of
all of which never work

if bessler used terms like BALANCE--EQUILIBRIUM--HEAVY ON ONE SIDE LIGHT ON THE OTHER--even "pendulum"
he's describing the action of gravity

a pendulum without gravity is a flywheel of sorts

yer theory not only involves impossible true perpetual motion that defies friction and inertia-and any number of physical laws-you want the wheel to do work--without even gravity being an energy gleaned
which means it's CREATING energy
also they say you could STOP it and it would accellerate again until it reached a terminal velocity
once again then in yer definition of what you think it musta been (something that worked only thru the momentum of it's parts)
it would be CREATING energy

i'm saying he saw a contstant stream (gravity) and figured out how to set a wheel into it and make it spin using THAT energy the stream--gravity
but he couldn't just submerge the whole thing down in the river

i say he found a waterfall--but couldn't just set the whole wheel under the waterfall so it flowed right down on top of the whole wheel evenly (GLUG)
he had to get it so it was pushing the wheel around by hitting one edge more
that's the secret external-to-the-wheel cheat

[James_Arne]

when i was in the navy you could get kicked out for kissing a shipmate
now i guess it's fine

anyway--i believe you are TRYING to be using the idea that compressing air before bringing it asunder takes less energy than dragging it back down ass-is
fighting the earth all the way
(even when you consider the energy it took to compress the air)
and that is correct which is a miracle of the micro issue not the macro issue

>> believe you are TRYING to be using the idea that compressing air <<

If you took time to read something, you would have read where I said vent tubes would be used. Do you need Ritakin or something ?

[Dwylbtzle]

Do you need Ritakin or something ?

no i need ritalin

and excuse me?

you pissed at me or something?
i was defending your basic idea
i THOUGHT

you talked about weights compressing air in a chamber, didn't you?
if not i apologize
my bad
(but that's the cheat:
you compress the air before you drag it down
then, if you let it expand again
gravity can act upon it
well the water it displaces
if it's compressed first not as much gravity can act on it
which it will if you try to drag a balloon or something down with brute force
because water can't be compressed)

i DID read yer stuff by the way
and i thought you were on the right track
and stated as much

[jim_mich]

Your thinking that gravity can perpetually rotate a wheel has flaws.

he had to get it so it was pushing the wheel around by hitting one edge more

For that to work would require stronger gravity on one side and weaker gravity on the other side. Leveraging doesn't work either.

if bessler used terms like BALANCE--EQUILIBRIUM--HEAVY ON ONE SIDE LIGHT ON THE OTHER--even "pendulum"
he's describing the action of gravity

This is where I think you (and Stewart) are wrong. If you push against one side of a swinging door and I push equally against the other side, then we have BALANCE--EQUILIBRIUM. For the door to swing requires more force in one direction. The force must be light on one side and heavy on the other side of the door. The door will swing due to a preponderance of force. A stock portfolio can be over weight in some stock sector, which means the portfolio is unbalanced. It is too heavy in one sector.

My point with the above paragraph is that I used words that might seem to indicate gravity, but none of those sentences concern gravity. In each case the word speak of unbalanced force. Any possible self-rotating wheel must have an unbalanced force rotating it. There must be more force in one direction and less in the reverse direction. The two points I've been trying to make for a long time here on the forum, and it seem no one is understanding, is that a PM wheel must have unbalanced force and gravity can only provide balanced force. Gravity cannot change its constant force here on Earth. In space is a different story.

Bessler talked about 'over weight', which can be translated as over force or unbalanced force, contrary to what Stewart claims.

[Dwylbtzle]

james A...in one of yer previouis posts you talked about some weights crushing air in a chamber
i THOUGHT
was that not you?
am i thinking of someone else?
gawd i gotta go back and make sure....

[Dwylbtzle]

Your thinking that gravity can perpetually rotate a wheel has flaws.

he had to get it so it was pushing the wheel around by hitting one edge more

For that to work would require stronger gravity on one side and weaker gravity on the other side. Leveraging doesn't work either.

AGREED--THAT WAS JUST AN EXPRESSION--A USAGE OF SPEECH--WHAT I AM SUGGESTING IS HE KEPT THE WEIGHTS CLOSER TO THE CENTER ON ONE SIDE--AND HE RESET THOSE WEIGHTS WITH AN OUTSIDE ENERGY--BECAUSE IF YER JUST EXPECTING GIZMOS INSIDE THE WHEEL TO ACOMPLISH THAT RESET THEN YER GONNA BE VIOLATING CONSERVATION OF ENERGY AS SO MANY PEOPLE IN HERE HAVE RIGHTLY POINTED OUT...SO THE GRAVITY KINDA (COULD BE SAID) ENDED UP SPILLING ON ONE SIDE OF THE WHEEL MORE (IN A SENSE)

if bessler used terms like BALANCE--EQUILIBRIUM--HEAVY ON ONE SIDE LIGHT ON THE OTHER--even "pendulum"
he's describing the action of gravity

This is where I think you (and Stewart) are wrong. If you push against one side of a swinging door and I push equally against the other side, then we have BALANCE--EQUILIBRIUM. For the door to swing requires more force in one direction. The force must be light on one side and heavy on the other side of the door. The door will swing due to a preponderance of force. A stock portfolio can be over weight in some stock sector, which means the portfolio is unbalanced. It is too heavy in one sector.

YES BUT IN THAT SENSE YOU HAVE A HELL OF A LOT OF ENERGY BEING CREATED IN THAT SYSTEM YOU JUST DESCRIBED THERE--BY THE TWO GUYS

My point with the above paragraph is that I used words that might seem to indicate gravity, but none of those sentences concern gravity. In each case the word speak of unbalanced force. Any possible self-rotating wheel must have an unbalanced force rotating it. There must be more force in one direction and less in the reverse direction. The two points I've been trying to make for a long time here on the forum, and it seem no one is understanding, is that a PM wheel must have unbalanced force and gravity can only provide balanced force. Gravity cannot change its constant force here on Earth. In space is a different story.

Bessler talked about 'over weight', which can be translated as over force or unbalanced force, contrary to what Stewart claims.

but i don't see any adequate explanation of where all this force comes from--they give the wheel a little nudge
it does heavy work
if you stop it it accellerates again

it runs forever defying inertia and entropy and friction
where does all this come from?
that initial shove?
and if you stop it how does it come back again?

[jim_mich]

First, you must remember that there were TWO versions of Bessler's wheel. During the stopping of the 1st version wheel, its weights found an OOB position, so that when released, the wheel self-started rotating again. All that we cannot determine from these known facts is that after the wheel was rotating then it had enough extra energy so as to lift external weight, i.e., to do work.

The 2nd version was balanced when stationary, i.e., it had no OOB weight whereby gravity could start it rotating. It's possible and I believe very probable, that the 2nd version remained balance gravity wise even when rotating. Some member here think I'm speaking heresy when I say gravity had nothing to do with rotating the 2nd version of Bessler's wheels. And if the moving weight could cause rotation of a balanced wheel, it could also cause the rotation of a wheel where the weights are able move in and out of balance.


Dwylbtzle,
Are you familiar with Maxwell's Demon? If not, then I suggest you do a little reading. It describes a way to gain usable energy (i.e., gain ectropy), which would break the laws of thermodynamics.

Are you familiar with the origins of thermodynamic laws? They originally only concerned heat engines. Then people started trying to apply thermodynamic laws to all situations. Eventually they assumed that thermodynamic laws apply to all situations involving motion. A machine that gains force and energy without involving heat conversion is not a thermodynamic heat-to-motion engine limited by heat-to-motion laws.

[Dwylbtzle]

i still don't see where the energy to do heavy work forever comes from

if yer saying you know a way to create energy by actually breaking physical laws
then why are people calling other people in here psychotic and not you?
maybe they are
welcome to the club
hehe

i dunno
in my theory
i have explained everything except the exact details of the energy he got to reset the weights
all he had to do to make the gravity wheel tap gravity is use another little push to reset or realign or re nudge--however you wanna put it
a few weights each rotation
and yes
it would have to be a free energy
or one not expected
but it could be done
the thing i'm thinking of is certainly sitting in yer house right now
and everyone's house i guarantee it

if you've read some book that gives you demon energy then go for it, brother
yer on the side of the angels in my book

[jim_mich]

i still don't see where the energy to do heavy work forever comes from

From Wikipedia Maxwell's Demon ...

Maxwell conceived a thought experiment as a way of furthering the understanding of the second law. His description of the experiment is as follows:

... if we conceive of a being whose faculties are so sharpened that he can follow every molecule in its course, such a being, whose attributes are as essentially finite as our own, would be able to do what is impossible to us. For we have seen that molecules in a vessel full of air at uniform temperature are moving with velocities by no means uniform, though the mean velocity of any great number of them, arbitrarily selected, is almost exactly uniform. Now let us suppose that such a vessel is divided into two portions, A and B, by a division in which there is a small hole, and that a being, who can see the individual molecules, opens and closes this hole, so as to allow only the swifter molecules to pass from A to B, and only the slower molecules to pass from B to A. He will thus, without expenditure of work, raise the temperature of B and lower that of A, in contradiction to the second law of thermodynamics....

In other words, Maxwell imagines one container divided into two parts, A and B. Both parts are filled with the same gas at equal temperatures and placed next to each other. Observing the molecules on both sides, an imaginary demon guards a trapdoor between the two parts. When a faster-than-average molecule from A flies towards the trapdoor, the demon opens it, and the molecule will fly from A to B. Likewise, when a slower-than-average molecule from B flies towards the trapdoor, the demon will let it pass from B to A. The average speed of the molecules in B will have increased while in A they will have slowed down on average. Since average molecular speed corresponds to temperature, the temperature decreases in A and increases in B, contrary to the second law of thermodynamics.

Note that the demon must allow molecules to pass in both directions in order to produce only a temperature difference; one-way passage only of faster-than-average molecules from A to B will cause higher temperature and pressure to develop on the B side. In fact, because temperature and pressure are related, if A and B both contain the same numbers of molecule per unit volume, the one with the higher temperature will also have higher pressure; the demon must actually let more slow molecules pass from B to A than fast ones pass from A to B in order to make B hotter at the same pressure. Indeed, by regulating the number of molecules passed in each direction, the demon could achieve a pressure difference instead of a temperature difference, or any combination of temperature and pressure differences (possibly including lower pressure on the higher temperature side, depending on the variance in the speeds of the molecules).

Instead of exchanging faster and slower molecules, you design a mechanism that is able to simply transfer momentum/velocity/speed from a slower moving weight to a faster moving weight using CF. Newton's laws say that in such cases the total momentum of the two weights MUST remain conserved since no outside forces (except the wheel's momentum) are involved. So let's assume Newton isn't a liar and two weights on a rotating wheel change velocities equally.

One weight gains velocity and one weight looses velocity. Momentum is conserved. Because CF is exponential to velocity, the accelerating weight gains more CF than is lost by the decelerating weight.

As Bessler said, "The weights gain force from their moving." The force that is gained is centrifugal force. The increase of CF of the faster moving weight is greater than the decrease of CF of the slower moving weight.

[Dwylbtzle]

well the stuff about getting energies from
or involving some aspect of
molecules at the micro level
regardless of what's going on with gravity or any other thing that may be happening involving any newtonian law at the macro level
is exactly what i've been saying
but
you lost me at how you can do that with two solid weights that are working together in the macro level

i guess yer saying the little demon could open and close the door at the micro level and only admit the fiestier molecules

but the two weights at the macro level are gonna slam him in the head
(so to speak)

i can see getting extra energy from molecules

but yer total energy from two weights is always gonna be yer total energy
where do you pick up the extra energy?

it has to come from somewhere

and why doesn't doing "work" extract even more?

whatever you got to make it overcome inertia and entropy and friction....now it has to come up with even more

and if you stop it it starts again?

[Dwylbtzle]

anyway that's yer base theory--do you have ANY ideas how to build it?

i'm not asking details

just...ANY idea?

[Dwylbtzle]

i see you saying this and that becomes more than that and this
but you don't show how and why
i mean you SAY it happens--but yer gonna have to do "magic math for quantum dummies" here
because that's me

hell maybe we're both right
i'm not ruling that out
but i've just told you how it could be done with plastic and tape and a pin and household articles if you can just figure out the household articles and slap them all together
i think i'm gonna get there first
of course that's if i haven't already

that's the "toy" as i call it

i have the TOY which is a gravity wheel
and i have the BFD which uses the principle buoyancy uses but without any buoy
and isn't a wheel

and now fletcher and i have the imaginary magical psychedelic jelly wheel
the hypothetical theoretical heretical thingamajig
that science fiction frikkin frictionless flibertigibit
IF the kid's liquid does what that article says it does:
creates a liquid that doesn't leak
defies gravity
and doesn't slow the wheel down with surface tension and pressure differences
but the hell with that pain in the ass thing

the only reason i'd build that thing is to blow it up, maybe...

let my grandkids use it for a skateboard hurdle

[jim_mich]

anyway that's yer base theory--do you have ANY ideas how to build it?

i'm not asking details

just...ANY idea?

Oh yes. Definitely.

and if you stop it it starts again?

Only if you have some method of starting it again, which is what I assume the early uni-directional wheels did. When they were brought to a halt, the weight swung/moved into an OOB position. And when released gravity started the wheel to rotating. and then the rotation in conjunction with the motion of the weights kept the wheel turning. Of course the later bi-directional wheels were hand started because they were balanced when stationary. And there is no indication that they became unbalanced gravity-wise when rotating, except people insist that the wheel MUST be rotated by unbalanced weights rather than by unbalanced force.