Patent secrecy orders - of the economically significant kind

[getterdone]

Hi James, the point that I was trying to make in regards to the robotics is that although many manufacturing jobs were lost due to the technology, many more jobs would have been lost, if it was only used over-seas.
If our politicians fight to keep the status quo, other nations will move ahead, and we will have to try and catch up later. We cant stop progress

What's good for the big corps, isn't always good for the middle class.

[James_Arne]

getterdone,
Computers and robotics have allowed for much that has been needed.
Myself, I think irresponsibility on the part of our leaders has allowed corporations to become more dependent on technology than is healthy for the economy.
Many economists have mentioned this as to much investment in technology can lead to a manufacturing capacity that reduces the need for a work force without alternatives to replace those positions that are lost.
With lean manufacturing, the goal in some ways seems to be if you can have an automated facility then it will allow for a better return on the investment than having employees who might make an occasional mistake, have families or might become sick reducing the output of those facilities.


James_A

[Dwylbtzle]

you may be right, in the short run, james arne--but i have a natural aversion to your line of thinking
i am reminded of the guy who went to see the big dam being built in china--and he asked why they were only using slaves with shovels, and not any bulldozers
and was told: "to give more people employment"
so he asked: "then why are you giving them shovels instead of spoons?"


******************

Dr. Timothy Leary predicted that, soon, SO much work would be done with robots
that people would just have to be PAID to do whatever they wanted

now THAT's an idea
(an acid head, pure-fantasy-utopian-socialist (yuk, i can hardly utter that last word)) idea--but an idea nonetheless)
then machines would do the body and mind destroying grunt work
and humans could make art and think of witty inventions
and production would still be so high
it could be pulled off

[ovyyus]

We, the almighty consumer, given free market choice, will pay $1 for something that's worth $10 because we condone the use of slaves and robots. What's the problem?

[Dwylbtzle]

well WE can be that way--because we either have the most/best robots
or we expect chinese to be robots
but they are pretty smart
they will want their own robots soon
so i say
hell build the damn robots and get it over with

'course THEN we got the whole TERMINATOR series to deal with....

[Rafael Ti]

The Free Energy revealed to the world is something similar to robotics on market. It will work in the same way for humanity. Many people will loose their jobs...

[Dwylbtzle]

then they have to get new better jobs
this is the old LUDDITE argument from exactly 200 years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite
they wanted to destroy anything but horses and buggies and ox-plows, etc
because things like steam engines and cotton gins and looms (etc etc) were "killing jobs"

[rasselasss]

Dwy.the irony of progress cuts like a two edged sword,take the great American Steel Industry and the allied Auto mobile trades up to the 1970's then the dramatic decline since,the same thing happened in the U.K.and the rest of Europe.....cheaper labour elsewhere .....unions blamed shareholders and vice-versa for the turn of events that we are experiencing now,huge unemployment ,rich get richer,poor get poorer etc.....gone are the halycon days of Shipyards ....now whole towns turning into places of deselation and despair ....reads like something from a paperback book,people laughed at the Charlie Chaplin film "Modern Times"?but it was the beginning of the end ......Was the Luddite ideaology wrong or was it the "catch 22"element of what could go wrong did go wrong in the implementation....no matter, i believe that there should be work for all,and this downward spiral must halt....(mad irishman letting off steam)

[Dwylbtzle]

the mad irishmen are the ones who see clearly

any shift in the big bad world inevitably squishes some poor little bastards
ah the many ways a li'l puppy can be squished
the luddites were right, from their point of view
weaving fabric was an honored ancient well paying skilled job
and then some wanker invented a big automated loom that could be operated by a monkey--(taught a few repetitive rote moves)
who could then outproduce the skilled spinster by a hundred fold
and they're thinking: "why should we take THIS?"
and if you were fifty five
and had spent forty years becoming the best in your craft
wot now?--flip hamburgers?
i see their point
but they and their agricultural counterparts wanted to stop the industrial revolution-
strangle it in its crib-and that just wasn't happenin'
finally they had to quash the movement with mass executions
the british army was fighting more luddites on british soil than all of napoleon's army
as i pointed out:
timothy leary (another mad hibernian) finally took that really big sugar cube and saw that the inevitable destination of this arc is:
sooner or later robots will be able to do almost ALL the grunt work
so people will just have to be PAID to do what they want
and they may come up with more good things than when they were wage slaves
free energy would help

[James_Arne]

Dwy.the irony of progress cuts like a two edged sword,take the great American Steel Industry and the allied Auto mobile trades up to the 1970's then the dramatic decline since,the same thing happened in the U.K.and the rest of Europe.....cheaper labour elsewhere .....unions blamed shareholders and vice-versa for the turn of events that we are experiencing now,huge unemployment ,rich get richer,poor get poorer etc.....gone are the halycon days of Shipyards ....now whole towns turning into places of deselation and despair ....reads like something from a paperback book,people laughed at the Charlie Chaplin film "Modern Times"?but it was the beginning of the end ......Was the Luddite ideaology wrong or was it the "catch 22"element of what could go wrong did go wrong in the implementation....no matter, i believe that there should be work for all,and this downward spiral must halt....(mad irishman letting off steam)

I was listening to the Mike huckabee show. He's an American politician if I'm right. In his show, one business owner said something that made me nervous. With our being over budget, he said that if taxes were raised to help balance our budget, he would lay off workers.
I'm not sure, but if the U.S. is supposed to be a leader, then I would think that our civic and business leaders should accept the responsibility that comes with the position they wish the U.S. to have in the world.
@Raphael, I think with any free energy device, as has been historically shown will still cost to build and maintain. Hydro electric power is a free energy source and I think shows accuarately that there are costs involved and that for free energy to be able to supply power on a large scale requires and equal amount of PE to exist and be converted.
Some types of free energy are wind power, solar power and geo-thermal to name a few. And one day, if even on a limited scale, perpetual motion (gravity) will join them if even as Bessler's wheel.

James_A.

[Dwylbtzle]

well, yeah, yer right--it's like "free firewood"--in america one can go into any national forest and gather all the free deadwood one can haul off
you can't cut a live tree
but anything already dead is fair game
they encourage it, because it even helps forestall big forest fires
but there ain't nothin FREE about it
it's back breaking grunt work, grubbing thru the bush

even with robots
someone will always have to oil the robots
or INVENT an automatic robot oiler
people will never become totally redundant

the thing wth the TV show
yes
small businesses in this country will have to lay more people off if the money grubbing government sqeezes them any harder (which it plans to do)
but the government forced the banks to give loans to every poor person to buy a huge nice house
and backed the loans with government gaurantees
and printed the money to give to the banks for the loans
and then the banks said SURE--here take the loan--we don't CARE if you can repay it
then houses went way up in price
then the government changed the laws so the banks could become speculative financial institutions
(and ANYthing could become "a bank"--even General Motors is now ALLY BANK)
and sell the bad paper (the financial instruments based on these bad loans), to hard working peoples' pension funds, (etc)
all over the world--in a way that could never be undone or untangled
and then the whole bubble burst
and crashed most economies--as so many were entangled in the scam
and the taxpayers are expected to bail everything out
so they (governments) feel like they have to raise taxes to a crippling point

oh yes world
AMERICA certainly DID this to you

and you remember an american told you so
you have every right to be pissed

[rasselasss]

Dwy,some call it the domino effect that affects global economies when one big country goes bad,i'm not an economist or historian but i do know and have concern that in the last century world wars followed each worldwide recession,strangely enough money materialised in abundance by each combatant country...i'm retired, but its a sad fact over here in the U.K.there is over 1 million(and rising) young men and women long term unemployed and very little hope of work and their future looks bleak....more and more normally politically conservative minded people possibly because of better communications and education than our forefathers are questioning and demanding answers from the Government representatives elected by us.

[Dwylbtzle]

that's what i'm worried about--these UTTER financial collapses--wherever
they hit the hardest, historically have ended in totalitarian dictatorship
take-overs--then wars
and this thing is gonna be world-wide--they have blown that bursting
bubble up to 1.2 quadrillion that's 1200 trillion
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... LRT7toXh_Y
that's the amount SOMEONE thinks they had themselves leveraged for
and the levers went south
--and the world economy in total was 60 trillion

so the bubble burst takes years to play out
i don't see much (financial) to be optimistic about in the near-run

it is clear to me that a large aspect of criminality has seen that buying into government can be a lucrative enterprise
if they can manipulate laws and politicians they will
if they can set it up so they can gamble with yer tax dollars--and have YOU bail them out when they call the wrong bet
they will
if they can deny any or all alternatives to some fossil fuel monopoly
they've already got wrapped up for themselves
they will
and if they can TAKE your patent...

i guess now they're trying to figure a way to do it
and if they get the right laws that allow them to do that
they will

[getterdone]

I agree 100% , I don't trust any of them

[James_Arne]

that's what i'm worried about--these UTTER financial collapses--wherever
they hit the hardest, historically have ended in totalitarian dictatorship
take-overs--then wars
and this thing is gonna be world-wide--they have blown that bursting
bubble up to 1.2 quadrillion that's 1200 trillion
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... LRT7toXh_Y
that's the amount SOMEONE thinks they had themselves leveraged for
and the levers went south
--and the world economy in total was 60 trillion

so the bubble burst takes years to play out
i don't see much (financial) to be optimistic about in the near-run

it is clear to me that a large aspect of criminality has seen that buying into government can be a lucrative enterprise
if they can manipulate laws and politicians they will
if they can set it up so they can gamble with yer tax dollars--and have YOU bail them out when they call the wrong bet
they will
if they can deny any or all alternatives to some fossil fuel monopoly
they've already got wrapped up for themselves
they will
and if they can TAKE your patent...

i guess now they're trying to figure a way to do it
and if they get the right laws that allow them to do that
they will

>> if they can deny any or all alternatives to some fossil fuel monopoly
they've already got wrapped up for themselves
they will
and if they can TAKE your patent... <<

The international ITER project for fusion: Why?

ITER is a large-scale scientific experiment that aims to demonstrate that it is possible to produce commercial energy from fusion.
http://www.iter.org/proj/itermission
http://www.iter.org/