Understanding Bessler

[James_Arne]

SilverTiger,
I did some quick math this morning and found out that a wheel that has a channel 2 1/2 inches deep and 15 inches wide could hold a little over 40 lbs. of water in a 12 ft. wheel.
If 1 1/2 sections are filled with water and 1/3 of the volume could rotate the wheel at 20 rpm, then 2 wheels could generate about 50 amps @ 120 volts. That could possibly power a small home or a cabin in the woods.

Jim

edited to add; @All, one thing has occured to me, with even a simple Bessler wheel working, there of course would be interst in what potential they might have and how fast they could rotate. to be expected.
What I think for someone like myself would be more interesting is where they would want to keep a well built wheel of his. The reason I wonder this is that with Da Vinci they made prototypes of his drawings even if they didn't work, just to let people see what his designs looked like having been built. With Bessler, undoubtedly they would want some of his designs built and wonder if he ever built them and what he might have learned by studying such motions. I think this is the direction I will be following.

[James_Arne]

@All,
What lead me in the direction of this wheel was the builds I did. They gave me an idea of how much over balnce it takes to rotate a wheel.
And since I always used math even though some heavily criticized me for it, it helped me to understand that I needed to look for something in Bessler's drawings that had the potential for a lot of over balance. Mt 67 was the drawing.
With 1/2 of the wheel having bellows that are filled gives it an over balnce that while is unrealistic was an obvious clue. Mt 66 shows a cross section of 4 bellows and that Bessler understood about pistons and pumps.
There were 2 things mentioned about what Bessler had said that I was mindful of, the first was that a cross section might work. If it was the same in his time as it is ours, then 4 points were across section and Mt 66 fit that description.
And the second thing I remembered was that he saw something in nature. It is possible that it was a water wheel. Like wind mills, they were used for threshing grain into flour. In one of his drawings (bi-directional wheel at Merseberg) he shows a thresher.
And one thing everyone knows about water wheels is that the water flows over the top of the water wheel filling all the buckets on one side, like in Mt 67 with the bellows/diaphrams. A link to a picture of a working water wheel and one for Mt's 66 & 67.
By the way, Mt 66 shows the cam that picks up the threshers,the dowels are missing. When the dowels come out of the timber they're lifting, the timbers drop down onto the grain pulverizing it into flour.

Jim

http://www.twincitiesdailyphoto.com/200 ... -park.html
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index. ... -80#MT_066

[James_Arne]

Dear troll

Although you believe you have some personal gift and understanding of Besslers wheel, let me assure you that you do not. Although your infantile attempts at solving this problem are expected from a beginner, most beginners wouldn't be delusional enough to believe that they alone have a unique understanding of gravity that defies the laws of physics.

Whatever your personal grievances you believe you have with certain well respected members of this forum exist only in your head. You are your own worst enemy.

Seek help

Yours Sincerely

Kaine

Kaine,
Here is the Wikipedia definition of a troll for you.
" In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll

I don't live in isolation but unfortunately this forum is rather isolated.

edited to add; Uh, Kaine, I do help others, Check out Webby1's Pendulum. i also help people I meet and family :-)
The definition just doesn't seem to fit me. But if ti makes you feel better. There is one thing you did miss. Why would Alan be concerned about me enough to want me to work under him ? it seems no one has given this any thought. I am someone who should not have ever mattered to him if he did not think me to know something that he might benefit from.
he is more clever than you think.

[James_Arne]

@All,
Have thought of what might be a simplified way of building the wheel.
And it goes back to when I mentioned using grids. I'm going to give it
a try. I'm thinking they'll give the wheel more support while keeping the
weight down. Of course, this means I'll need to use my router so I can
have nice clean lines for mating surfaces.
Still, will probably need to wait until my medical issues are resolved.
Have an appt. on the 14th which will hopefully mean I'm getting closer.
I did some math and found out that an 1/8 section of a 12 ft. wheel
could hold a max of 35 lbs. of water. If even 20 lbs. is used, at 6 feet,
that is still 120 ft. lbs. of torque.
In Besslers "The triumph", I think when he mentioned the grindstone
and the cam and said the cam was for lifting weight, he was giving an
accurate description. The grindstone could have been attached to the
wheel and the grindstone would have been the winch that lifted what
weight his wheel happened to be lifting. This is something that could
have been made out of a single piece of wood and turned on a wood
lathe.

James_A

[James_Arne]

@All,
Have decided to use a grid like concept to build the wheel with.
It should help to keep the weight down and work well.
One thing I like about it is I won't have to warp as many boards so it will make the building process a little better.
It probably will be the middle of August before I can start. Until then, not much to say.

James_A.

[ovyyus]

he mentioned the grindstone... he was giving an
accurate description.

Bessler was referring to the general shape and appearance of his wheel as being similar to that of a grindstone, which of course it is.

I won't have to warp as many boards...

Are you inferring John's translation of Wolff's description of the wheel which included the term 'warped boards'? If so the translation is not correct and Wolff made no mention of 'warped boards'. Research Stewart's revised translation.

[James_Arne]

ovyyus,
The translation I am using is one mentioned to me by German's on overunity dot de. They referenced about 3 variations of the word.
One also mentioned to me that Bessler used pipes or tubes. They said the word in German could be translated either way.
With the grindstone and cam, it could have another use, Mt 20. He did say in his quote that it lifted up special weights. And with such a configuration, the long weighted lever could apply more force when it turns outward to the over balance.
A part of his quote; "levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance".
If his words were properly phrased, he would probably say >>levers work somewhat more peculiarly and turn outward to the over balance and raise up special weights <<.
That is if it's describing the function and the work they perform in proper order. But by referring to the work before the action, it makes people think the levers turning outward have the weights on them and that they have some unique quality.

James_A

edited to correct spelling and to mention that in the "The Triumph" Bessler did say his cam was used to lift weights.

[James_Arne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOl2dJaavS8

[James_Arne]

from Mt 27, "and having a heart-weight at C".
And if you notice where the channel E is located, it is the rim.
Why do I mention this ? it is because a heart is a pump. And it seems that when the heart shaped weight drops, if it is like a heart (it is drawn like one, why?), then it will like wise pump a fluid.
It seems my crude pump mimics Mt 27.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index. ... -40#MT_026
ovyyus,
http://besslerwheel.com/writings/das_triumphans.html
quote; Except for a small change in the external dimensions of the wheel for raising weights (or so-called "running wheel")," end quote
I think this is what lifts the short lever in Mt 20.
As things are, I may make more money pursuing my own invention even if an Italian will get some of the credit for his help with it which he would deserve.
After all, about the only people a Bessler wheel would help are those without running water. If you figure that a 12 foot wheel with 150 ft. lbs. of torque and having 20 rpm can only generate 425 watts of power.
http://www.magtrol.com/support/motorpower_calc.html

edited to identify Bessler's quote.

[James_Arne]

have decided to pursue my own ideas when I able. as for Bessler, enough people in here are in a much better position than myself.
will be needing a 6th surgery before I can return to work.
have to believe that if a person found Besslers work that interesting, they would find trying to be even better.

James_a

[James_Arne]

Just listened to the song "Mexican Radio" by Wall of Voodoo.
Makes me think of trying to get an understanding of how multiple pumps can work together.
In the attached drawing of Bessler's (Mt 67), if water fills the pumps on the right side, what would happen ? With the Keel Effect, the wheel would not rotate because there is as much water above the axle as below it.
If you consider the axle as a center line between over and under balance, then the wheel would rotate clock wise. Since this is accepted by most people, after all, it mimics a water wheel which some accept as proof that such an imbalance does work, can the water be pumped upwards with a long lever with a weight creating the force such as Mt 66 ?
Hydraulic pumps do it all the time (with a person working the lever instead of a weight, applied force is what matters) but they didn't have those in 1700.
I may get around to building it one day. Missing work also means losing money and building takes money.
But if you consider that a wheel rolling around inside of the rim, what would it to to a tube with water in it ? That is what 8 pumps would be.

James_A,

[James_Arne]

@All,
Raj's doubler is similar to Bessler's grindstone and cam which lifted weights.
Just as Raj's device double's the motion of one lever, it also causes the opposing lever
to rotate half as quickly. This also means the slower moving lever can apply twice the force.
Basically, Bessler would be cluing us in to the fact that he used both leverage and the
principles of a hoist to cause his wheel to maintain an over balance. This could allow a weight
to generate much more force than it could using either leverage or the principle of the hoist by themselves.

James

edited to add; someone could ask Raj if he used an axle or bearings.