If I can use Gravity and transfer that energy to rotational momentum that will allow a wheel to keep turning- why would this go against any of Newtons laws?
Surely gravity is a force, just like wind power and if you had a place where the wind always blew and turned a turbine- this would not break Newtons laws.
I don't think there is a formula to link gravity to rotational momentum so if you can supply a weight to one side of a wheel to make it overbalanced and create enough rotational momentum to continue moving- would this break Newtons laws?
If I could have the weight to act on one side of a wheel most of the time and then return to its starting position, would this go against Newtonian physics?
I have no great scientific knowledge but I do posess a creative mind and believe that "perpetual motion " is possible and instead of going against the known science laws, it will use them in the most innovative, simplistic way- causing people to say, "why did I not think of that"
Your comments and thoughts are greatly welcomed.
Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
Moderator: scott
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
Welcome to the forum.
What you appear to saying is you are going to try conventional over-balanced designs to rotate a wheel. For a start, you should look at Besslers designs here: http://www.orffyre.com/mt1-20.html
When I joined this forum, I knew very little about Newtonian Maths. Now I know (comparatively) a lot more. This is a great place to learn.
Best of luck with your designs.
Kaine.
Actually there is. You can calculate how much a wheel will theoretically accelerate based on the forces applied to it.I don't think there is a formula to link gravity to rotational momentum
What you appear to saying is you are going to try conventional over-balanced designs to rotate a wheel. For a start, you should look at Besslers designs here: http://www.orffyre.com/mt1-20.html
When I joined this forum, I knew very little about Newtonian Maths. Now I know (comparatively) a lot more. This is a great place to learn.
Best of luck with your designs.
Kaine.
The problem with storing momentum is that in accelerating the mass of the flywheel you have slowed the decent of the falling mass, so it no longer has enough energy/velocity to return itself to the starting height or 12 O'clock position.
Don't worry about breaking Newton's laws, he isn't around to complain ;) But unfortunately his observations on the natural laws at work in our world tend to hold true. Regards,
Frank
Don't worry about breaking Newton's laws, he isn't around to complain ;) But unfortunately his observations on the natural laws at work in our world tend to hold true. Regards,
Frank
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
Kaine / Frank
Thanks for your responses. I have looked at the previous designs and my design is different from them. The problem is that it appears to be so simple that I believe someone would have tried it and it would be on the website.
My model is very basic and I am trying to get it to fully replicate what I need it to do.
I should be able to make the modifications by this weekend and will finally find out if the concept has a chance although early indications look positive- (Just the same as everyone else)!
PS. my design has both the force to drive the wheel and the wheel itself accelerating but I don't know if it is enough to move the wheel to the required position.
Will post an update soon.
Thanks for your responses. I have looked at the previous designs and my design is different from them. The problem is that it appears to be so simple that I believe someone would have tried it and it would be on the website.
My model is very basic and I am trying to get it to fully replicate what I need it to do.
I should be able to make the modifications by this weekend and will finally find out if the concept has a chance although early indications look positive- (Just the same as everyone else)!
PS. my design has both the force to drive the wheel and the wheel itself accelerating but I don't know if it is enough to move the wheel to the required position.
Will post an update soon.
bilbo "I have looked at the previous designs and my design is different from them."
What does it look like? Is there a picture or drawing of it?
What does it look like? Is there a picture or drawing of it?
Last edited by Aemilius on Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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preoccupied
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You and your "pictures". I think you have a steadier hand than 90% of the worlds population. Why are you not a brain surgeon?Aemilius wrote:What does it look like? Is there a picture or drawing of it?
And another thing, bilbo, yes Newton's laws are the law, so you have to use them to achieve an outcome unless you are treading into nuclear changes or are using special nuclear material to achieve the goal. So help me Science, if you break Newton's laws I'm calling the physics police to come get you! - to keep my fish safe, and my beautiful boat daughter, that would be ravaged by your criminal activity. Has anybody even noticed that I've found the solution in multiple ways yet?
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
f nepure "The problem with storing momentum is that in accelerating the mass of the flywheel you have slowed the decent of the falling mass, so it no longer has enough energy/velocity to return itself to the starting height or 12 O'clock position."
Unless of course you can mechanically split the un-stable 12 O'clock position into the 12 O'clock and 6 O'clock positions, and split the stable 6 O'colock position into the 9 O'clock and 3 O'clock positions.
Unless of course you can mechanically split the un-stable 12 O'clock position into the 12 O'clock and 6 O'clock positions, and split the stable 6 O'colock position into the 9 O'clock and 3 O'clock positions.
Last edited by Aemilius on Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
preoccupied "You and your "pictures". I think you have a steadier hand than 90% of the worlds population."
Hah! Thanks man....
preoccupied "Why are you not a brain surgeon?"
....it's already been done.
preoccupied "And another thing, bilbo, yes Newton's laws are the law, so you have to use them to achieve an outcome."
You've got that right.... no way around it.
preoccupied "Has anybody even noticed that I've found the solution in multiple ways yet?"
Tell me more.... Emile
Hah! Thanks man....
preoccupied "Why are you not a brain surgeon?"
....it's already been done.
preoccupied "And another thing, bilbo, yes Newton's laws are the law, so you have to use them to achieve an outcome."
You've got that right.... no way around it.
preoccupied "Has anybody even noticed that I've found the solution in multiple ways yet?"
Tell me more.... Emile
Last edited by Aemilius on Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trevor Lyn Whatford
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- Location: England
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
Hi Bildo, all,
A working out of balance wheel would not contravene the known energy laws in general, it would however go against the misconception that gravity is a conservative force, which it is not! if it was then you would not be able to tap tidal energy as we do, most of the experimental evidence used to prove gravity is a conservative force was misguided, in fact it was a geometry error and nothing to do with a conservative force, if you move weight a equal distance on one side of a wheel you have to return the weight a equal distance on the other side, and you are moving the weight in a equal force, it does not take a Einstein, or a Newton, to work out any advantage would be equal to the disadvantage as there is no movement gain because the geometry is equal, so why did Newton not understand this, and see it was geometry that is the problem and not gravity?
When the geometry problem is overcome like a over the top water wheel, gravity works just fine, because there is no equal distance movement back, I hear peoples thoughts are yes but now you have a energy input! Yes you do, but without the input of gravity water is weightless so the energy is 100% Gravity, on a flow of weightless fluid. So if you want to make a working gravity wheel you will have to increase the efficiency of the reset! 1. to get a working out of balance, or 2. a energy take off in a counterbalance lever reset and tapping rotary levers leverage movements or the levers falls, that is only two of the many uses of gravity’s inputs, there are to many to note here as gravity is inputting everywhere!
Regards Trevor
A working out of balance wheel would not contravene the known energy laws in general, it would however go against the misconception that gravity is a conservative force, which it is not! if it was then you would not be able to tap tidal energy as we do, most of the experimental evidence used to prove gravity is a conservative force was misguided, in fact it was a geometry error and nothing to do with a conservative force, if you move weight a equal distance on one side of a wheel you have to return the weight a equal distance on the other side, and you are moving the weight in a equal force, it does not take a Einstein, or a Newton, to work out any advantage would be equal to the disadvantage as there is no movement gain because the geometry is equal, so why did Newton not understand this, and see it was geometry that is the problem and not gravity?
When the geometry problem is overcome like a over the top water wheel, gravity works just fine, because there is no equal distance movement back, I hear peoples thoughts are yes but now you have a energy input! Yes you do, but without the input of gravity water is weightless so the energy is 100% Gravity, on a flow of weightless fluid. So if you want to make a working gravity wheel you will have to increase the efficiency of the reset! 1. to get a working out of balance, or 2. a energy take off in a counterbalance lever reset and tapping rotary levers leverage movements or the levers falls, that is only two of the many uses of gravity’s inputs, there are to many to note here as gravity is inputting everywhere!
Regards Trevor
I have been wrong before!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
Trevor, geometry hasnt given us a solution yet. A weight has to travel the same vertical distance down as it does up to get to the same position. As far I can tell, horizontal displacement doesnt effect the amount of energy you gain over a drop, nor the amount of energy require to raise that weight. It might pay to understand those laws correctly if you are to argue against them.
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
Bilbo - keep up your experiments and let us know how it fairs. Putting ideas into reality is never easy. But even in a non-successful experiment, something is always learnt. And that knowledge earned yourself from experimentation is far more valuable than reading about laws and equations in a book.
...his name is Frank
thanks for all your comments and support- I have learned so much in the last couple of days and due to what I have seen on here, I am working on the lever principle of my design.
It does involve a wheel which is ovebalanced and levers and weights and I just need to finalise one last bit and then I will know if it works.
Thanks again.
It does involve a wheel which is ovebalanced and levers and weights and I just need to finalise one last bit and then I will know if it works.
Thanks again.
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
Tarsier79 "....geometry hasnt given us a solution yet. A weight has to travel the same vertical distance down as it does up to get to the same position. As far I can tell, horizontal displacement doesnt effect the amount of energy you gain over a drop, nor the amount of energy require to raise that weight."
I'm staring at a mechanism that would seem to contradict that assertion....
I'm staring at a mechanism that would seem to contradict that assertion....
re: Does this break any of Newton's laws ?
The formula is F = ma.
And the formula makes momentum, it has nothing to do with energy.
The a is v/t; so substituting we have Ft = mv, mv is a conserved quantity that should make Ft a conserved quantity.
The extra mass on the one side of the wheel provides the F.
The extra mass and the wheel is the m. As the force is applied for a period of time it produces mv. Again: energy is no where to be found; this is a momentum equation.
Centrifugal force can be used to give all the motion (momentum; Newtonian Physics had nothing to do with Energy mv²) of the wheel to the dropped mass.
If the motion transfer is Newtonian; energy is created.
You must transfer the motion of the wheel into the dropped mass, you can call it a flip or a throw but the small mass must be disconnected from the wheel when the wheel stops rotating. See; smokin lamas
And the formula makes momentum, it has nothing to do with energy.
The a is v/t; so substituting we have Ft = mv, mv is a conserved quantity that should make Ft a conserved quantity.
The extra mass on the one side of the wheel provides the F.
The extra mass and the wheel is the m. As the force is applied for a period of time it produces mv. Again: energy is no where to be found; this is a momentum equation.
Centrifugal force can be used to give all the motion (momentum; Newtonian Physics had nothing to do with Energy mv²) of the wheel to the dropped mass.
If the motion transfer is Newtonian; energy is created.
You must transfer the motion of the wheel into the dropped mass, you can call it a flip or a throw but the small mass must be disconnected from the wheel when the wheel stops rotating. See; smokin lamas