.....can be seen as something superfluous,exceeding what is necessary or natural.
If you remind Bessler's quote ("...greed ,as an evil root...") ,his MT sketches and all designs intended to imagine a self-moving "wheel" due to gravity ,we can ask a simple question about a possible not needed repetitivity("redundance").
Really,why so many (variable) spokes?
With a single variable spoke/arm ,we can play the gravity unbalance , some-what as :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdSU4H9R ... ure=relmfu
A motor and a ratchet gear moves a mass on a single arm , so to pick up the gravity unbalace (torque difference on the same side of the fulcrum/support).
As a whole,it's difficult to say ,if this system is "self-moving" (maybe,likely not...),but have we, a proof to meditate about redundancy...and a certain liable Bessler's "secrecy"...?!
As a matter of fact,a rotating first class lever (a "seesaw",with a single variable arm...),can be considered a "wheel",also...but as a "minimized" one?!
Have we an "open way" to imagine and test (especially!) a gravity workable design/model ,as a surprising simplicity ?!?!
All the best ! / Alex
Redundancy...
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Redundancy...
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re: Redundancy...
Hi Alex!
This is a bit of long post so please bear with me or pass this one by if it holds no interest.
Alex, you are absolutely right about the ‘simplicity’, and bringing down ‘redundancy’ in perpetual motion that is urgently required to set the Bessler wheel in perpetual motion, this is a fact not the fiction. Cybernetics which is science of control and communication resembles and bears similarities with thermodynamics in many ways; therefore, it must bear some similarity/dissimilarity with the impossibility/possibility of perpetual motion also. Personally, I find cybernetic machine, brain and gravity wheel very much analogues as all of them have unlimited capacity to create their respective products through a very simple binary mechanism.
Weiner observed that the initial state of cybernetic machine is uncertain and its entropy is at maximum; when machine starts its operation, it receives information, removes uncertainty, decreases variety and gradually system behavior becomes predictable. The reduction of varieties is one of the principle methods of control. In cybernetics, the term “the entropy of choice� signifies a concept that allows us to compare cybernetic machines with regard to their efficiency in the manner they carry out the purpose. The most efficient or most preferable machines are considered those which demand least information. All the rest that requires much information suffers from a message redundancy.
Bessler and many others have enough enlightened us with codes and clues. Now we are required to control codes and clues by applying the principle of redundancy. The principle is interesting, and it may also be useful to the perpetual motionists who are in search of perpetual motion within MT. Well, those who rely on the codes and clues would not find the principle much convincing. Bessler observed that the initial state of Bessler wheel was certain and its entropy was at minimum, it was balanced; when machine started its operation, it generated power, increased uncertainty, increased variety of motions within the wheel and gradually system behavior became unpredictable in the sense that it didn’t obey established laws of mechanics after it was set in motion.
The reduction of varieties can be one of the principle methods of control and act as a guiding principle to the inventing of the right design of perpetual motion. The principle suggest that a inventor selecting a right design of Bessler Wheel with five criteria suffers a mass redundancy compared to a man who choose two or one or a minimum, if, of course minimum criterion is sufficient. The principle may serve as a guiding principle to select a right design from many MTs. The most preferable Bessler wheel must be considered those designs which demand least information and harmonizes with basic principles of symmetry and the rest that I have already pointed out in my ramblings on perpetual motion. All the rest that requires much information suffers from a message redundancy.
Further let me state that -
In gravity wheel no spokes are urgently required as cross bar can have a dual function , they themselves serves as spokes.
The minimum number of the cross bar are two to make a rotation greater than three hundred sixty degrees, so, they would impart wheel an appearance of four spokes.
You seem to be the master of the simplicity, and we have to learn a lot from you. I don’t exactly remember my previous statements about the simplicity of the wheel, perhaps, I told that even kids of fifth six grade can build a gravity wheel once design is known.
Here is my last statement about the simplicity of the gravity wheel.
A gravity wheel totally made of granite is possible except springs, bearings and nut and bolts that are required. . Levers made of granite. Weights made of granite. Axle made of granite, and props made of granite. May be some adhesive also. Nothing else! I wonder why didn't Bessler make such a model of stone to cast away all doubts and asked for a double price.
To sum up, there is too much ‘noise’ and ‘misinformation’ in the MT and rest of the story of unidirectional, bidirectional, and so called self starting and CM wheels, and as you most sagaciously suggest ‘redundancy’ is urgently required. In addition, we must examine sacrosanct statements of our dear friend Bessler in the light of fundamental laws of nature like principles of simplicity, economy, equilibrium and above all symmetry. It is matter of common sense, no big science is involved.
In this direction, I know that much of the scientific work has already been accomplished by ‘Deva’ and his team as shown by the attachment - a five –six years old sketch with much ‘reduced’ noise that was sent to me by younger brother of “Deva�. Well, these are my ramblings at the present moment that I hurriedly made. So I regret for the mistakes if any. I will examine the post at a later time to say more.
All the best,
Sincerely yours,
P-M
This is a bit of long post so please bear with me or pass this one by if it holds no interest.
Alex, you are absolutely right about the ‘simplicity’, and bringing down ‘redundancy’ in perpetual motion that is urgently required to set the Bessler wheel in perpetual motion, this is a fact not the fiction. Cybernetics which is science of control and communication resembles and bears similarities with thermodynamics in many ways; therefore, it must bear some similarity/dissimilarity with the impossibility/possibility of perpetual motion also. Personally, I find cybernetic machine, brain and gravity wheel very much analogues as all of them have unlimited capacity to create their respective products through a very simple binary mechanism.
Weiner observed that the initial state of cybernetic machine is uncertain and its entropy is at maximum; when machine starts its operation, it receives information, removes uncertainty, decreases variety and gradually system behavior becomes predictable. The reduction of varieties is one of the principle methods of control. In cybernetics, the term “the entropy of choice� signifies a concept that allows us to compare cybernetic machines with regard to their efficiency in the manner they carry out the purpose. The most efficient or most preferable machines are considered those which demand least information. All the rest that requires much information suffers from a message redundancy.
Bessler and many others have enough enlightened us with codes and clues. Now we are required to control codes and clues by applying the principle of redundancy. The principle is interesting, and it may also be useful to the perpetual motionists who are in search of perpetual motion within MT. Well, those who rely on the codes and clues would not find the principle much convincing. Bessler observed that the initial state of Bessler wheel was certain and its entropy was at minimum, it was balanced; when machine started its operation, it generated power, increased uncertainty, increased variety of motions within the wheel and gradually system behavior became unpredictable in the sense that it didn’t obey established laws of mechanics after it was set in motion.
The reduction of varieties can be one of the principle methods of control and act as a guiding principle to the inventing of the right design of perpetual motion. The principle suggest that a inventor selecting a right design of Bessler Wheel with five criteria suffers a mass redundancy compared to a man who choose two or one or a minimum, if, of course minimum criterion is sufficient. The principle may serve as a guiding principle to select a right design from many MTs. The most preferable Bessler wheel must be considered those designs which demand least information and harmonizes with basic principles of symmetry and the rest that I have already pointed out in my ramblings on perpetual motion. All the rest that requires much information suffers from a message redundancy.
Further let me state that -
In gravity wheel no spokes are urgently required as cross bar can have a dual function , they themselves serves as spokes.
The minimum number of the cross bar are two to make a rotation greater than three hundred sixty degrees, so, they would impart wheel an appearance of four spokes.
You seem to be the master of the simplicity, and we have to learn a lot from you. I don’t exactly remember my previous statements about the simplicity of the wheel, perhaps, I told that even kids of fifth six grade can build a gravity wheel once design is known.
Here is my last statement about the simplicity of the gravity wheel.
A gravity wheel totally made of granite is possible except springs, bearings and nut and bolts that are required. . Levers made of granite. Weights made of granite. Axle made of granite, and props made of granite. May be some adhesive also. Nothing else! I wonder why didn't Bessler make such a model of stone to cast away all doubts and asked for a double price.
To sum up, there is too much ‘noise’ and ‘misinformation’ in the MT and rest of the story of unidirectional, bidirectional, and so called self starting and CM wheels, and as you most sagaciously suggest ‘redundancy’ is urgently required. In addition, we must examine sacrosanct statements of our dear friend Bessler in the light of fundamental laws of nature like principles of simplicity, economy, equilibrium and above all symmetry. It is matter of common sense, no big science is involved.
In this direction, I know that much of the scientific work has already been accomplished by ‘Deva’ and his team as shown by the attachment - a five –six years old sketch with much ‘reduced’ noise that was sent to me by younger brother of “Deva�. Well, these are my ramblings at the present moment that I hurriedly made. So I regret for the mistakes if any. I will examine the post at a later time to say more.
All the best,
Sincerely yours,
P-M
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- Bhaskara Bessler Wheel
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re: Redundancy...
Hi P-M !
If redundancy is characterized by an unnecessary repetition in expressing ideas,this time our focus is about the continuous (fall) motion of gravity ,and more precisely how to take out some mechanical power for our profitable use (how to interfere with gravity and inertia).
You like to play "piano" with words and ideas...it's so nice ,but you see,on this forum,I think that we need a short way to play gravity fall,in a simple manner (if possible,as a "seesaw game").
You like to say again and again about perpetuum mobile,or continuous motion...as a principle,so a general,fundamenta,scientific rule for explaining all kind of motion in nature.
Ok!If we have in mind the (continuous/"perpetuum") mechanical motion,have we a "natural model"... to reproduce,to imitate ?
A real wheel ,if you like this "imago" as a "natural perpetuum mobile concept",can have 1,2,3,4,5...many" spokes (including Bhashkara one...)...but what is your choice?
A natural system has no redundance... a seesaw /lever also...
All the best ! / Alex
If redundancy is characterized by an unnecessary repetition in expressing ideas,this time our focus is about the continuous (fall) motion of gravity ,and more precisely how to take out some mechanical power for our profitable use (how to interfere with gravity and inertia).
You like to play "piano" with words and ideas...it's so nice ,but you see,on this forum,I think that we need a short way to play gravity fall,in a simple manner (if possible,as a "seesaw game").
You like to say again and again about perpetuum mobile,or continuous motion...as a principle,so a general,fundamenta,scientific rule for explaining all kind of motion in nature.
Ok!If we have in mind the (continuous/"perpetuum") mechanical motion,have we a "natural model"... to reproduce,to imitate ?
A real wheel ,if you like this "imago" as a "natural perpetuum mobile concept",can have 1,2,3,4,5...many" spokes (including Bhashkara one...)...but what is your choice?
A natural system has no redundance... a seesaw /lever also...
All the best ! / Alex
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re: Redundancy...
Hi Alex,
You stated:
In the gravity wheel, I assume that each weight returns to its original position in each cycle of its operation which is followed by successive symmetry building and symmetry breaking of mass distribution around the center. Let me clarify further. For me, there is no other way than to think that Bessler wheel was governed by a close cycle mechanism. Physicists say that sum of the potential and the kinetic energy for any dynamic system must be zero. But in the case of the gravity wheel, we know that weights occupied their original position in each cycle of rotation, and it is also well evident that Bessler wheel performed various kinds of works, therefore, it is not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that his gravity wheel violated principle of conservation of energy.
Bessler claimed that his wheel received motive force from the movements of eight weights. Now, it is obvious that at least his wheel consisted of eight levers. It is also obvious that Bessler must have spatially distributed eight weights along with levers on the wheel. Since wheel is subject to a rotation of three hundred sixty degrees and have mass points spatially distributed around the centre, it is obvious that it undergoes different symmetry operations. Bessler himself indicated this point. That said, now the question arises: what is the final criterion of redundancy in Gravity wheel keeping in mind the principles of symmetry? Since his Weissenstein wheel has C8 axis of symmetry as in every rotation of fortyfive degree we get eight identical images of wheel. The wheel also has four cross bar with two weights on each, weight superior and inferior. In addition to this, our preference for selection of right mechanical elements out of many must be for those parts which have mirror images in upper half and lower half , and in the left and the right halves.
After finding this, further, we have to analyze the wheel by comparing it with model of planetary perpetual motion in which differential of X and Y component determines an elliptical path as shown in the Swami’s picture. If X and Y are equal, it would yield a circular path that would be against Kepler's law also. In simple words, we are required to make vertical arm longer and horizontal arm shorter simultaneously almost. There can be number of ways to do it, via rope and pulley arrangement, lazy tongue arrangement and also an arrangement with seesaw as you stated. Bessler shows all these alternatives in his MT drawings.
Through my long long posts, I have always emphasized the fact that Gravity wheel follows the laws of planetary perpetual motion, and other fundamental laws of nature- simplicity, economy, symmetry etc. We will notice a number of errors in Bessler's claim if we could do so. I wont go in details, suffice would be to say that I have found many. In addition, I have tried to show that gravity is the most symmetric, most ancient non- conservative force. In each cycle of the operation, it is successive breaking of the symmetry which results into the “creation of the energy’. I believe that universe/creation began with breaking the symmetry of the "Absolute, and Infinite by an aberration or polarization in its homogeneity. For me symmetry breaking is identical with "creation of energy". I have discussed this matter with most able professors of physics, chemistry and mathematics who are teaching 'symmetry' to their post graduate classes. They have agreed with my arguments. However, physicist under mere intoxication of law of conservation of energy consider the matter equivocally as the symmetry / breaking of symmetry pair thematizes to them, on the one hand, invariance, conservation, regularity and equivalence, and on the other, criticality, instability, singularity, ordering.
To sum up, the gravity is pure case of vibration, the law of vibration/ oscillation precedes rotation. I can give you scores of examples from the Vedic wisdom and other ancient wisdom to land support to my premise. Just recall, among the Seven Principles of Truth, upon which the entire Hermetic philosophy is based, we find universal principle of perpetual motion stated as the third principle of vibration: “Nothing rests, everything moves; everything vibrates.� Also the fifth, the ‘principle of rhythm’ states the same fact: “Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.� Mind, brain, cybernetic machine, electromagnetic wave or the behavior of the particle as described by particle physics – all are governed by binary mechanism, symmetry rules, and so on. The string theory describes gravity merely as vibration of the string.
We have description of a Swastika wheel in Rg Veda guarded by Gods as best as Bessller guarded his Gravity wheel. Deva says that, one must begin with Swatika design whenever one begins and attempts to invent a gravity wheel. From very start, he likes to suggest to determine vertical and horizontal components of perpetual motion so that weights prescribe an elliptical path, the understanding of which is very crucial to fruition of perpetual motion. In fact, by suggesting a Swastika design, he indicates a universal principle. Also, please look, the wave that travels through space along with the electric field and magnetic fields oscillating back and forth 90 degrees out of phase and in planes that are at right angles to each other is nothing but absolute example of perpetual motion, and so the gravity wheel along with its weights swinging back and forth 90 degrees out of phase/asymmetry and in planes that are at right angles to each other. If you alternate perpendicular and horizontal arms of the Swastika with a variable length with weights mounted on them, it would yield perpetual motion. This is also the principle how current is produced, how DNA functions, it is the principle how life is produced. In all the cases, through symbolic representation of Yin and Yang and Swastika principle, we can have the manifestation of the flow of energy from Void. According to Deva Ramananda in the world, everything that is alive has breath, or a pulsation. Orffyreus told the same thing as he brought dead material to life. If I quote him and explain further, this post would be longer.
So I would stop my speculation here. Well, you found my thoughts musical like a piano! Wow! All music is based on vibration. Gravity is indeed music of heavenly spheres! Newton was a cheater or plagiarist. I think you know that Newton’s plagiarism of his universal law of gravitation was based on Pythagoras theory of music. Recall the Bode's law. ......oh my own perpetual motion will never end....what can I do ? The brain which operates on binary principle is the ultimate cause of perpetual motion!- and all contradictions and ramblings also -until truth of the gravity wheel is made public. So, I would stop my speculations here to save your precious time. Nevertheless, I have certain assumptions and theory of perpetual motion that do serve as basis of my ramblings. That said, I cannot see any more coherent way to speak about the truth of the gravity wheel other than as stated above.
All the best
Sincerely yours,
P-M
You stated:
While studying natural system, there is no absolute measure as to how to decide between redundancy and no redundancy. We have to keep many things in mind while making our observations on a natural system. We have to differentiate between the redundancy and the requirements of the symmetry as natural systems are not governed by principle of redundancy alone. A human body has bilateral symmetry. Brain has bilateral symmetry. A starfish has a radial symmetry. So merely on the basis of redundancy, it would be wrong to argue that one eye, one ear one hand or leg in human being are superfluous because on human body they are repeated twice by the creator.A natural system has no redundance... a seesaw /lever also...
In the gravity wheel, I assume that each weight returns to its original position in each cycle of its operation which is followed by successive symmetry building and symmetry breaking of mass distribution around the center. Let me clarify further. For me, there is no other way than to think that Bessler wheel was governed by a close cycle mechanism. Physicists say that sum of the potential and the kinetic energy for any dynamic system must be zero. But in the case of the gravity wheel, we know that weights occupied their original position in each cycle of rotation, and it is also well evident that Bessler wheel performed various kinds of works, therefore, it is not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that his gravity wheel violated principle of conservation of energy.
Bessler claimed that his wheel received motive force from the movements of eight weights. Now, it is obvious that at least his wheel consisted of eight levers. It is also obvious that Bessler must have spatially distributed eight weights along with levers on the wheel. Since wheel is subject to a rotation of three hundred sixty degrees and have mass points spatially distributed around the centre, it is obvious that it undergoes different symmetry operations. Bessler himself indicated this point. That said, now the question arises: what is the final criterion of redundancy in Gravity wheel keeping in mind the principles of symmetry? Since his Weissenstein wheel has C8 axis of symmetry as in every rotation of fortyfive degree we get eight identical images of wheel. The wheel also has four cross bar with two weights on each, weight superior and inferior. In addition to this, our preference for selection of right mechanical elements out of many must be for those parts which have mirror images in upper half and lower half , and in the left and the right halves.
After finding this, further, we have to analyze the wheel by comparing it with model of planetary perpetual motion in which differential of X and Y component determines an elliptical path as shown in the Swami’s picture. If X and Y are equal, it would yield a circular path that would be against Kepler's law also. In simple words, we are required to make vertical arm longer and horizontal arm shorter simultaneously almost. There can be number of ways to do it, via rope and pulley arrangement, lazy tongue arrangement and also an arrangement with seesaw as you stated. Bessler shows all these alternatives in his MT drawings.
Through my long long posts, I have always emphasized the fact that Gravity wheel follows the laws of planetary perpetual motion, and other fundamental laws of nature- simplicity, economy, symmetry etc. We will notice a number of errors in Bessler's claim if we could do so. I wont go in details, suffice would be to say that I have found many. In addition, I have tried to show that gravity is the most symmetric, most ancient non- conservative force. In each cycle of the operation, it is successive breaking of the symmetry which results into the “creation of the energy’. I believe that universe/creation began with breaking the symmetry of the "Absolute, and Infinite by an aberration or polarization in its homogeneity. For me symmetry breaking is identical with "creation of energy". I have discussed this matter with most able professors of physics, chemistry and mathematics who are teaching 'symmetry' to their post graduate classes. They have agreed with my arguments. However, physicist under mere intoxication of law of conservation of energy consider the matter equivocally as the symmetry / breaking of symmetry pair thematizes to them, on the one hand, invariance, conservation, regularity and equivalence, and on the other, criticality, instability, singularity, ordering.
To sum up, the gravity is pure case of vibration, the law of vibration/ oscillation precedes rotation. I can give you scores of examples from the Vedic wisdom and other ancient wisdom to land support to my premise. Just recall, among the Seven Principles of Truth, upon which the entire Hermetic philosophy is based, we find universal principle of perpetual motion stated as the third principle of vibration: “Nothing rests, everything moves; everything vibrates.� Also the fifth, the ‘principle of rhythm’ states the same fact: “Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.� Mind, brain, cybernetic machine, electromagnetic wave or the behavior of the particle as described by particle physics – all are governed by binary mechanism, symmetry rules, and so on. The string theory describes gravity merely as vibration of the string.
We have description of a Swastika wheel in Rg Veda guarded by Gods as best as Bessller guarded his Gravity wheel. Deva says that, one must begin with Swatika design whenever one begins and attempts to invent a gravity wheel. From very start, he likes to suggest to determine vertical and horizontal components of perpetual motion so that weights prescribe an elliptical path, the understanding of which is very crucial to fruition of perpetual motion. In fact, by suggesting a Swastika design, he indicates a universal principle. Also, please look, the wave that travels through space along with the electric field and magnetic fields oscillating back and forth 90 degrees out of phase and in planes that are at right angles to each other is nothing but absolute example of perpetual motion, and so the gravity wheel along with its weights swinging back and forth 90 degrees out of phase/asymmetry and in planes that are at right angles to each other. If you alternate perpendicular and horizontal arms of the Swastika with a variable length with weights mounted on them, it would yield perpetual motion. This is also the principle how current is produced, how DNA functions, it is the principle how life is produced. In all the cases, through symbolic representation of Yin and Yang and Swastika principle, we can have the manifestation of the flow of energy from Void. According to Deva Ramananda in the world, everything that is alive has breath, or a pulsation. Orffyreus told the same thing as he brought dead material to life. If I quote him and explain further, this post would be longer.
So I would stop my speculation here. Well, you found my thoughts musical like a piano! Wow! All music is based on vibration. Gravity is indeed music of heavenly spheres! Newton was a cheater or plagiarist. I think you know that Newton’s plagiarism of his universal law of gravitation was based on Pythagoras theory of music. Recall the Bode's law. ......oh my own perpetual motion will never end....what can I do ? The brain which operates on binary principle is the ultimate cause of perpetual motion!- and all contradictions and ramblings also -until truth of the gravity wheel is made public. So, I would stop my speculations here to save your precious time. Nevertheless, I have certain assumptions and theory of perpetual motion that do serve as basis of my ramblings. That said, I cannot see any more coherent way to speak about the truth of the gravity wheel other than as stated above.
All the best
Sincerely yours,
P-M
The search for truth is more precious than its possession.�
― Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions
― Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions
Every time I read Bessler's 'gravity wheel' I cringe.
Perpetual Motionist wrote:In the gravity wheel, ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:But in the case of the gravity wheel, ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:it is not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that his gravity wheel ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:what is the final criterion of redundancy in Gravity wheel ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:I have always emphasized the fact that Gravity wheel ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:as Bessller guarded his Gravity wheel. ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:Swatika design whenever one begins and attempts to invent a gravity wheel. ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:and so the gravity wheel ...
Perpetual Motionist wrote:-until truth of the gravity wheel is made public. ...
Bessler never claimed a gravity wheel. He always claimed a perpetual motion wheel.Perpetual Motionist wrote:That said, I cannot see any more coherent way to speak about the truth of the gravity wheel other than as stated above.
re: Redundancy...
Jim:
I agree Jim, in fact he seems to have deliberately avoided Wagner’s terminology of gravity.Bessler never claimed a gravity wheel. He always claimed a perpetual motion wheel.
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re: Redundancy...
It is very difficult, not to say impossible PM.Therefore, it is not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that his gravity wheel violated principle of conservation of energy.
No he didn't. Fischer von Erlach commented that he 'heard the sound of about eight weights landing on the side toward which the wheel turned'. Not Bessler's words and too subjective to take as fact.Bessler claimed that his wheel received motive force from the movements of eight weights
It's conservative, PMgravity is the most symmetric, most ancient non- conservative force.
I suggested the swastika design in my Bessler bio, back in 1997 - and subsequently dismissed it, as irrelevant.
You found my thoughts musical like a piano! Wow!
No!
JC
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re: Redundancy...
Hi Jim Mich,
I consider Bessler wheel as a form of perpetual motion moved by mere influence of the gravity. Since his Wheel contained weights and derived it motive power from them, I consider it as a gravity wheel, over-balancing wheel, the first form of perpetual motion that violates the first law of the thermodynamics. One need not to cringe until the truth of the gravity wheel becomes public. According to laws of nature, I suppose that the natural course of the invention is from simple to complex, therefore, it is difficult for me to conceive that he first invented motion wheel. May be, my concept of the gravity wheel is altogether different from the Bessler's wheel, though I am confident that there is no sound reason to believe so. Please bear with it.
Best regards,
P-M
I consider Bessler wheel as a form of perpetual motion moved by mere influence of the gravity. Since his Wheel contained weights and derived it motive power from them, I consider it as a gravity wheel, over-balancing wheel, the first form of perpetual motion that violates the first law of the thermodynamics. One need not to cringe until the truth of the gravity wheel becomes public. According to laws of nature, I suppose that the natural course of the invention is from simple to complex, therefore, it is difficult for me to conceive that he first invented motion wheel. May be, my concept of the gravity wheel is altogether different from the Bessler's wheel, though I am confident that there is no sound reason to believe so. Please bear with it.
Best regards,
P-M
The search for truth is more precious than its possession.�
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re: Redundancy...
Hi Collins,
I can't consider every Bessler statement as something sacrosanct, I feel that at various places, in his works, Bessler deliberately misled his readers and opponents.
You stated:
Like the rest of the historians and scientists, I consider an overbalancing wheel as to be the first form of the perpetual motion that violates the first law of thermodynamics i.e. the law of conservation of energy. The Bessler wheel that moved by influence of gravity, by agency of weights falls in the same category. Any attempt to explain the overbalancing wheel within the framework of the prevailing laws of physics like principle of conservation of energy is self contradictory. Moreover, the sacrosanct status of the principle of conservation of energy has been challenged by a number of leading philosophers, philosophers of science, metaphysicians, cosmologist, astronomers , experimental psychologists along with their convincing arguments and experimental evidences. I consider the law of the conservation of energy based on the foundations of the impossibility of perpetual motion as the biggest hoax in the history of science.
Please try to see the contradiction. Jim Mich says that Bessler wheel is a form of perpetual motion as Bessler claimed it. You try to say that Bessler wheel doesn't violate principle of conservation of energy. Now check the tally of laws of thermodynamics and corresponding impossibilities of perpetual motions of three kinds. So, may I know that Bessler wheel is a kind of perpetual motion altogether different from three kinds of perpetual motions that scientists have, so far, put forward to raise the laws of thermodynamics, and reject all kinds of perpetual motions? If yours is a new category, definitely, there must be a law of thermodynamics corresponding to it. please find it out. So you see, to me, all seems to be a vicious circle that always raises doubt about the validity of the principle of conservation of energy. It is better if we could emancipate us from the vicious circle by applying some free thinking.
Best regards,
P-M
I can't consider every Bessler statement as something sacrosanct, I feel that at various places, in his works, Bessler deliberately misled his readers and opponents.
You stated:
Did you give any reasons to dismiss Swastika design as irrelevant? Did you dismiss Yin and Yang design also? You often dismiss Deva's work as fiction without giving any reason. Well, like him, I also believe that Bessler wheel is based on planetary perpetual motion, it is not something as fiction. When Deva Ramananda applies ancient wisdom, like Swastika to explain the perpetual motion, it is all wrong and fiction according to you, but when you apply Yin and yang to explain perpetual motion, it is all correct and fact. ?...?...? Well I see no difference between the two as I stated to Alex."I suggested the swastika design in my Bessler bio, back in 1997 - and subsequently dismissed it, as irrelevant."
Like the rest of the historians and scientists, I consider an overbalancing wheel as to be the first form of the perpetual motion that violates the first law of thermodynamics i.e. the law of conservation of energy. The Bessler wheel that moved by influence of gravity, by agency of weights falls in the same category. Any attempt to explain the overbalancing wheel within the framework of the prevailing laws of physics like principle of conservation of energy is self contradictory. Moreover, the sacrosanct status of the principle of conservation of energy has been challenged by a number of leading philosophers, philosophers of science, metaphysicians, cosmologist, astronomers , experimental psychologists along with their convincing arguments and experimental evidences. I consider the law of the conservation of energy based on the foundations of the impossibility of perpetual motion as the biggest hoax in the history of science.
Please try to see the contradiction. Jim Mich says that Bessler wheel is a form of perpetual motion as Bessler claimed it. You try to say that Bessler wheel doesn't violate principle of conservation of energy. Now check the tally of laws of thermodynamics and corresponding impossibilities of perpetual motions of three kinds. So, may I know that Bessler wheel is a kind of perpetual motion altogether different from three kinds of perpetual motions that scientists have, so far, put forward to raise the laws of thermodynamics, and reject all kinds of perpetual motions? If yours is a new category, definitely, there must be a law of thermodynamics corresponding to it. please find it out. So you see, to me, all seems to be a vicious circle that always raises doubt about the validity of the principle of conservation of energy. It is better if we could emancipate us from the vicious circle by applying some free thinking.
Best regards,
P-M
The search for truth is more precious than its possession.�
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re: Redundancy...
J. Collins stated :
So may I know any specific reason, still why do you consider gravity as a conservative force? The fact is clear that in Bessler wheel, in each cycle of its operation, weight returns to their original state. If gravity were conservative, how could Bessler wheel perform work? Or do you believe that in each cycle of rotation, weights inside wheel do not return to their original position? or Bessler's wheel didn't contain weights? MT drawings show that his wheel used weights.
Well, it is an endless debate until we find out the truth of Bessller wheel. Trevor Lyn Whatford also beautifully stated same:
Best regards,
P-M
If it is conservative, then, it wouldn’t create perpetual motion. Do you consider Bessler wheel as a form of perpetual motion? If you do not consider Bessler wheel as a form of perpetual motion, it would contradict Bessler key statement that internal structure of his machine was according to the laws of mechanical perpetual motion. What are those laws of perpetual motion except principle of superior weight or principle of the excess weight and so on? Why do you rely on main stream and consider force of Gravity as conservative or you have your own specific reasons? According to General Relativity gravity is not even a force. Many scholars have shown that the so called observed fact of the accelerating universe violates principle of conservation of energy. Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle and subsequently creation or annihilation of virtual articles that leads to zero point energy all indicate violation of the conservation principle. Moreover, modern cosmogony suggests that universe began from a singularity where all laws of the physics cease to apply. Does it make any sense?“It's conservative, PM�
So may I know any specific reason, still why do you consider gravity as a conservative force? The fact is clear that in Bessler wheel, in each cycle of its operation, weight returns to their original state. If gravity were conservative, how could Bessler wheel perform work? Or do you believe that in each cycle of rotation, weights inside wheel do not return to their original position? or Bessler's wheel didn't contain weights? MT drawings show that his wheel used weights.
Well, it is an endless debate until we find out the truth of Bessller wheel. Trevor Lyn Whatford also beautifully stated same:
"People want order in there knowledge base that is why people believe in the energy laws and will fight to prove what is believed is correctness, well until you find truth you will not find order, thus all the controversy here about what is gravity."
Best regards,
P-M
The search for truth is more precious than its possession.�
― Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions
― Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions
re: Redundancy...
JC:
I always wondered if the statement can’t be confused. I assume he meant if the wheel was turning clockwise the noise was on the right hand side. It can be construed different though; turning up or turning down?Fischer von Erlach commented that he 'heard the sound of about eight weights landing on the side toward which the wheel turned'.
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iacob alex
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re: Redundancy...
.....as I see the things,is a simple question about the "extra" in our designs,intended to imagine "self motion" due to gravity fall.
The Latin binomial "perpetuum mobile"=continuous motion,says nothing especially for me....the mechanical continuous movement ("perpetuum mobile" of the cosmic bodies) is something else....we can see it on the firmament.
So,continuous motion ("perpetuum mobile") of what ???!!!
As a matter of fact,usually our mind is "enclosed"/limited ,in the same time, into two "cages":
-a conceptual one (the old French Academy definition...)
-a practical one (the old Bhashkara Wheel proposal...)
The French Academy stated that a perpetuum mobile (machine) can be of three kinds (!) ,but it 's impossible ...so,unable to be or happen three times ,also(?)
The Bhashkara "wheel" image,is a long time and obsessive repetition of a gravity "non-falling" process : simply as a "frozen river flow".
Perpetuum mobile/continuous motion is a huge philosophical concept about Universe we are living in, so diverse in the natural world.
If we intend to "copy" the mechanical continuous motion,due to gravity fall and inertia ,simply,we need to apply the basic mechanics to an "opened" model:look to the sky!
All the best! / Alex
The Latin binomial "perpetuum mobile"=continuous motion,says nothing especially for me....the mechanical continuous movement ("perpetuum mobile" of the cosmic bodies) is something else....we can see it on the firmament.
So,continuous motion ("perpetuum mobile") of what ???!!!
As a matter of fact,usually our mind is "enclosed"/limited ,in the same time, into two "cages":
-a conceptual one (the old French Academy definition...)
-a practical one (the old Bhashkara Wheel proposal...)
The French Academy stated that a perpetuum mobile (machine) can be of three kinds (!) ,but it 's impossible ...so,unable to be or happen three times ,also(?)
The Bhashkara "wheel" image,is a long time and obsessive repetition of a gravity "non-falling" process : simply as a "frozen river flow".
Perpetuum mobile/continuous motion is a huge philosophical concept about Universe we are living in, so diverse in the natural world.
If we intend to "copy" the mechanical continuous motion,due to gravity fall and inertia ,simply,we need to apply the basic mechanics to an "opened" model:look to the sky!
All the best! / Alex
Last edited by iacob alex on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Collins
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re: Redundancy...
Its a fair question daxwc. Imagine a wheel rolling along a road. The side towards which the wheel turns is the front half of the wheel, and for a clockwise turning wheel the side towards which it turned would be the right side as you suggest. I imagine that he tried to describe it as well as possible even though he wa unable to be absolutely certain about the number of weights, so he intended the meaning to be as simple as we have described it. The word 'side' could mean anywhere on that side though.I assume he meant if the wheel was turning clockwise the noise was on the right hand side.
JC
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re: Redundancy...
Hi Alex,
Sorry Alex, I find the Swami's image very much revealing about the nature of perpetual motion, I see it as a nice improvement over its original MT when I keep in mind, especially, the elimination of “redundancy� as I already discussed in my response to you. I expected that you would comment on it in the connection with redundancy which is also the topic of your thread. I don’t understand what you actually mean by “non falling� process� and "frozen river flow" and whether these have any connection with redundancy. Still, I would attempt to say, Weight is inexhaustible force like a permanent magnet. The magnetism in the Permanent magnet would appear as a “frozen river� as long as it is not near the piece of iron, at the moment it finds iron in the vicinity, it would begin to attract, and then “frozen river� would begin to flow. Gravity behaves in a similar manner. May be, you have a different concept, and thinking differently on this issue which I can't conceive.
Best regards,
P-M
Sorry Alex, I find the Swami's image very much revealing about the nature of perpetual motion, I see it as a nice improvement over its original MT when I keep in mind, especially, the elimination of “redundancy� as I already discussed in my response to you. I expected that you would comment on it in the connection with redundancy which is also the topic of your thread. I don’t understand what you actually mean by “non falling� process� and "frozen river flow" and whether these have any connection with redundancy. Still, I would attempt to say, Weight is inexhaustible force like a permanent magnet. The magnetism in the Permanent magnet would appear as a “frozen river� as long as it is not near the piece of iron, at the moment it finds iron in the vicinity, it would begin to attract, and then “frozen river� would begin to flow. Gravity behaves in a similar manner. May be, you have a different concept, and thinking differently on this issue which I can't conceive.
Definitely, perpetual motion is a profound concept and has diverse forms in the nature, ordered as well as disordered. When we are interested in looking into the foundations of perpetual motion, I believe, the only account and description of it to which any perpetual motion enthusiast, being impartial in his approach, attach any credence, is found in the Vedas, the oldest book of mankind, the oldest book of natural philosophy. Many pious scholars regard them as a revelation made to men by the supreme Ruler, it is not only about the perpetual motion but also about our spiritual and material world as a whole. Well, I do not subscribe to their opinion, however, most profound principles relating to working of the Universe, human existence and virtually every sphere of human activity were given expression through principle of perpetual motion by Vedic sages. Vedic perpetual motion perfectly depicted the underlying principles on which Universe operates. They also suggested that social order must be based on the principle of perpetual motion, of harmony and synergy. The scholars interested in perpetual motion philosophy will find in Vedic thought an extraordinary mass of material which for detail and variety has hardly any equal in any other part of the world. In Vedas, Perpetual motion largely governed by gravity constitutes universal order embodied in Universe. It is the expression of the primordial dynamism that is inherent in everything and also possesses its own internal coherence, a unifying force that could be said to be the very soul of Universe. In Vedas, cyclical perpetual motion which is caused by bi fold nature of gravity accounts for all major features of Universe. The Indian astronomers who discovered perpetual motion acknowledge the influence of Vedas in their discovery.�Perpetuum mobile/continuous motion is a huge philosophical concept about Universe we are living in, so diverse in the natural world.�
Yes, to copy the mechanical continuous motion, we need to apply basic mechanics but one hitherto unknown to the scientist. I think same basic mechanics Bhaskara applied and eventually, proposed his design of his mercury wheel. It is unfortunate that science rejects his perpetual motion and basic mechanics.If we intend to "copy" the mechanical continuous motion, due to gravity fall and inertia, simply, we need to apply the basic mechanics to an "opened" model :look to the sky!
Best regards,
P-M
The search for truth is more precious than its possession.�
― Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions
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re: Redundancy...
Hello to all the commentators,
All of you are saying half truths, Per Jim-mich opinion that Bessler's wheel is a motion wheel and not a gravity wheel, I conducted this thought experiment. Bessler said that when the weight of his wheel reach the 6:00 O'clock position, in a flash it is sent to the 12:00 O'clock position. Both Wagner and us cannot understand this. But remember Bessler's wheel has two parts , a perpetual mover and a prime mover. Bessler tells us everything about the perpetual movers ( the MT is full of them) , but he said nothing of his prime mover. A weight moves from the 12:00 to the 6:00 position, most of the energy (PE) goes into the output power generation. From this I can see that his prime mover does not need power to re-generate, but it needs movement. Second he uses the principle of excess weight, if the prime mover uses excess weight, you don't need gravity for the prime mover. Because all you need is to find the center of mass of this weight and tie a spring to it to hold the tension. And from the above statement, you lift a weight to let it fall, you do not need to do this, all is needed is to save this energy and move the wheel around some other way ( we have many ways to do this).
Because of this I do believe Jim-mich is right. but understand the ramifications. gravity may stay conservative but the first law of thermodynamics is proven total wrong.
but this is only a thought. I could be wrong.
Bessler's Assistant
All of you are saying half truths, Per Jim-mich opinion that Bessler's wheel is a motion wheel and not a gravity wheel, I conducted this thought experiment. Bessler said that when the weight of his wheel reach the 6:00 O'clock position, in a flash it is sent to the 12:00 O'clock position. Both Wagner and us cannot understand this. But remember Bessler's wheel has two parts , a perpetual mover and a prime mover. Bessler tells us everything about the perpetual movers ( the MT is full of them) , but he said nothing of his prime mover. A weight moves from the 12:00 to the 6:00 position, most of the energy (PE) goes into the output power generation. From this I can see that his prime mover does not need power to re-generate, but it needs movement. Second he uses the principle of excess weight, if the prime mover uses excess weight, you don't need gravity for the prime mover. Because all you need is to find the center of mass of this weight and tie a spring to it to hold the tension. And from the above statement, you lift a weight to let it fall, you do not need to do this, all is needed is to save this energy and move the wheel around some other way ( we have many ways to do this).
Because of this I do believe Jim-mich is right. but understand the ramifications. gravity may stay conservative but the first law of thermodynamics is proven total wrong.
but this is only a thought. I could be wrong.
Bessler's Assistant