Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-Set!!!
Moderator: scott
re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
The above diagram shows the three stages of angular momentum (AM) transfer for the non-one way clutch case. In other words the case where both the single 3 o'clock weight (T) and the combination 9 o'clock and balanced weights (N) are free to rotate.
You will notice that the weights are surrounded by a elliptical grey area. This represents the weights taken as a whole, the Group, and must be thought of as a real independent hierarchical entity. Anyone familiar with Analysis of Variance will recognise these two different levels as analogous to the concept of within and between batch variation.
Because this is a closed system for rotation AM has to be conserved.
Therefore the Group Centre (represented by the black dot) has to remain stationary throughout any elastic interaction of the weights. This applies to any elastic interactions whatever, not just the particular interactions being considered here.
Turning now (no pun intended) to the interaction shown in the diagrams above.
The T weight moves CW to the elastic impact point. At the same instant the N weights move CCW to the impact point.
Say the T weight carries 5 units of CW AM. Because angular momentum must be conserved the N weights must carry 5 units of CCW AM.
If we designate CW AM as positive and CCW AM as negative then the algebraic angular momentum is zero. The Group Centre is stationary.
At elastic impact between T and M the angular momentums are exchanged.
T moves off to the right towards its reset position with N's -5 units of AM and N moves off to the left with T's +5 units of AM.
Now even if T regains its reset position so that once again the wheels are perfectly balanced there will be no net angular momentum for the 6 weight wheel.
To sum up. There can be no angular momentum gain, no rotational energy gain in other words, for a wheel system which is rotationally closed, rotationally isolated.
One has to open up the system.
Moreover, one has to open up the system asymmetrically so that the gravitational wind can do work on one side and be prevented from doing work on the other.
This can be achieved by introducing a one way clutch to the system so that gravity can do work on the T weight and be prevented from doing work on the N weights.
The interactions for such a system are shown in the next set of diagrams.
In this case the N combination is stationary as shown. the T weight moves towards impact as before carrying 5 units of CW AM. The N combination is prevented from moving CCW so it provides no AM to the system.
At impact the one way clutch allows the N combination to move CW. Impact switches the weight system from being open to being closed in respect of AM.
The angular momentum of the 6 weight system is not conserved with respect to our external frame of reference though it is of course with respect to the internal grey ellipse frame of reference.
The group centre will now continue to move clockwise with a total AM of 5 units and this will not be attenuated in any way by elastic interactions of N and T.
We know therefore that it must be possible to return T to its reset position. If we do this in such a way as to reduce the velocity of T relative to N to zero then the now balanced wheel will rotate continuously with an AM of 5 units.
By forcing the Newtonian Gravitational Wind to act asymmetrically we have manifested "perpetual motion".
Of course, knowing why something is certainly possible and achieving it experimentally are quite different things. But knowing why it's possible is certainly a big incentive to overcome the experimental problems which I will be going into in further posts.
Did Bessler's wheel work this way?
I doubt it. I think his solution was more sophisticated and involved pendulums in some form or another. Cloud Camper seems to have some constructive thoughts on this.
Did Kennie's wheel work this way?
Probably.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
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re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Nice work Frank - I think we are a lot closer to an agreement.
I am still studying your post but believe you're on the right track. In the BW we need to consider each individual weight as it's own "system", either open or closed. In the Keenie, a group of weights rotating together on a specific wheel would be a "system".
I think we can say a system is closed whenever a weight is moving up or down, obeying Emmy (on the Keenie, a group of weights on either the inner or outer wheel).
Then a system is open whenever a weight is stopped or translating horizontally.
That is a system is open whenever PE is not being converted to KE or the reverse.
I believe JB is clearly showing in MT 138 that the weights must stop in order to open the system and then why not transfer all accumulated KE to the wheel at the same time? And of course, with the weights stopped (even for an instant), we have no CF to overcome when the weights change direction. Rather helpful I think!
In the BW, the weights would then begin commutating horizontally back to the vertical axis of the wheel. In the Keenie, the commutation is then from wheel to wheel.
Your idea of assymetrically opening the two systems in the Keenie sounds very appealing. I need to study it in depth!
It seems as though we need to come to some agreement on what a "system" consists of before we can make a lot of headway however!
I am still studying your post but believe you're on the right track. In the BW we need to consider each individual weight as it's own "system", either open or closed. In the Keenie, a group of weights rotating together on a specific wheel would be a "system".
I think we can say a system is closed whenever a weight is moving up or down, obeying Emmy (on the Keenie, a group of weights on either the inner or outer wheel).
Then a system is open whenever a weight is stopped or translating horizontally.
That is a system is open whenever PE is not being converted to KE or the reverse.
I believe JB is clearly showing in MT 138 that the weights must stop in order to open the system and then why not transfer all accumulated KE to the wheel at the same time? And of course, with the weights stopped (even for an instant), we have no CF to overcome when the weights change direction. Rather helpful I think!
In the BW, the weights would then begin commutating horizontally back to the vertical axis of the wheel. In the Keenie, the commutation is then from wheel to wheel.
Your idea of assymetrically opening the two systems in the Keenie sounds very appealing. I need to study it in depth!
It seems as though we need to come to some agreement on what a "system" consists of before we can make a lot of headway however!
re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Really?Newtonian Gravitational Wind
Madness: doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
Which of us is the more crazy?
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re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
I'm afraid it's you T79.
Frank has simply adopted Nikola Tesla's viewpoint of the gravitational wind.
Oh yes, NT was the inventor of Polyphase AC Electricity, the AC induction motor, not to mention the original developer of the Niagara Falls hydroelectric power system which electrified New York City.
For it's time, this was equivalent to a modern man-on-the-moon project for which NT was solely responsible.
What have you invented? Where have you presented ANY ideas?
As far as I can tell, the only skill you have demonstrated is to scream obscenities at highly qualified newbies!
Get a life, creep!
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles ... ew-physics
Frank has simply adopted Nikola Tesla's viewpoint of the gravitational wind.
Oh yes, NT was the inventor of Polyphase AC Electricity, the AC induction motor, not to mention the original developer of the Niagara Falls hydroelectric power system which electrified New York City.
For it's time, this was equivalent to a modern man-on-the-moon project for which NT was solely responsible.
What have you invented? Where have you presented ANY ideas?
As far as I can tell, the only skill you have demonstrated is to scream obscenities at highly qualified newbies!
Get a life, creep!
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles ... ew-physics
re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Maybe Tarsier79 is just having a good laugh.Absurdity is what I like most in life, and there's humor in struggling in ignorance. If you saw a man repeatedly running into a wall until he was a bloody pulp, after a while it would make you laugh because it becomes absurd. David Lynch
Tesla wasn't right about everything and I am a Tesla fan. It is more like a gravitational vaccum than a wind. Gravity comes from mass; it is not mass. Wind is not Ether either, even if it did exist. We have been through this argument a hundred times and nobody has a good stance on it being wind. I do like Jim's explanation on why it is not wind though.
Tesla understood ether theory a lot better than Einstein did, but obviously, Tesla also did not truly understand the ramifications of Einstein’s famous equation E=mc2. He dismissed it as mathematical poppycock.
What goes around, comes around.
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re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Hi Daxwc,
Regards Trevor
I think that would be sad and try to help, "not funny at all", David Lynch was not a nice man!Absurdity is what I like most in life, and there's humor in struggling in ignorance. If you saw a man repeatedly running into a wall until he was a bloody pulp, after a while it would make you laugh because it becomes absurd. David Lynch
Regards Trevor
I have been wrong before!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
- cloud camper
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re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Well Dax, I beg to differ.
Marc J Seifer Phd has written several books on Tesla and has this to say about his ideas on gravity (from the article):
Take the Earth, for instance. Classical physics sees the force of gravity as some type of almost magical attractive force between stars and planets. Ether theory has a totally different view. The reason we fall back to the Earth when we jump up is not this mystical force of gravity, but rather it is because the Earth is constantly absorbing a tremendous amount of ether to keep all of its elementary particles spinning. We are just in the way of this influx.
What anybody says or doesn't say on this forum doesn't mean squat in any scientific sense and is just unfounded opinion of what Tesla's ideas were.
I'll go with Marc, thanks.
Marc J Seifer Phd has written several books on Tesla and has this to say about his ideas on gravity (from the article):
Take the Earth, for instance. Classical physics sees the force of gravity as some type of almost magical attractive force between stars and planets. Ether theory has a totally different view. The reason we fall back to the Earth when we jump up is not this mystical force of gravity, but rather it is because the Earth is constantly absorbing a tremendous amount of ether to keep all of its elementary particles spinning. We are just in the way of this influx.
What anybody says or doesn't say on this forum doesn't mean squat in any scientific sense and is just unfounded opinion of what Tesla's ideas were.
I'll go with Marc, thanks.
re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Grimer did not call it aether did he. He called it gravitational wind and in other arguments never has Grimer held the view he was talking about aether or Tesla.
What goes around, comes around.
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re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
You Ozzies really need to lighten up and get over it!
Maybe it's cuz of hanging around by your heels all day and night trying to keep from falling off down there, I dunno. I guess I would be crabby too!
But exactly what are Ozzies known for inventing? See where I'm going with this?
So maybe you mates could reverse some of that negative energy and use it to reinvent the Bessler Wheel or something.
Frank is just exercising his brain to prevent the fog from settling in. I think that's commendable. I like most of his ideas!
Can't you think of any arguments based on actual physics to challenge him with? Then go ahead and knock yourself out!
These negative personal attacks just ain't doin it for you guys. Sorry!
Maybe it's cuz of hanging around by your heels all day and night trying to keep from falling off down there, I dunno. I guess I would be crabby too!
But exactly what are Ozzies known for inventing? See where I'm going with this?
So maybe you mates could reverse some of that negative energy and use it to reinvent the Bessler Wheel or something.
Frank is just exercising his brain to prevent the fog from settling in. I think that's commendable. I like most of his ideas!
Can't you think of any arguments based on actual physics to challenge him with? Then go ahead and knock yourself out!
These negative personal attacks just ain't doin it for you guys. Sorry!
re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
I am not an ozzie.You Ozzies really need to lighten up and get over it!
I do find it offensive if that is your aim.Maybe it's cuz of hanging around by your heels all day and night trying to keep from falling off down there, I dunno. I guess I would be crabby too!
But exactly what are Ozzies known for inventing? See where I'm going with this?
The scientific method is built on a foundation of negative checks, this isn’t Fantasy Island.So maybe you mates could reverse some of that negative energy and use it to reinvent the Bessler Wheel or something.
I am happy for you.Frank is just exercising his brain to prevent the fog from settling in. I think that's commendable. I like most of his ideas!
We were; gravitational wind does not exist. Newtonian Gravitational Wind; did Newton ever veiw gravity as wind?Can't you think of any arguments based on actual physics to challenge him with? Then go ahead and knock yourself out!
Maybe you and Frank should go back to that other forum you came from. Then you two can have a quiet peaceful delusional banter, where you are free to run up and down each other’s pant legs looking for refreshments.These negative personal attacks just ain't doin it for you guys. Sorry!
What goes around, comes around.
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re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Well, speaking of delusional banter, why don't you go start some threads on
how to square your circles or where to dig for philosophers stones.
That will solve the wheel! I will stick to hard core engineering, thanks kids!
how to square your circles or where to dig for philosophers stones.
That will solve the wheel! I will stick to hard core engineering, thanks kids!
re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
The above diagram shows a minimalist wheel mechanism for proving asymmetric gravity action. It consists of four weights (snooker balls say) which rotate about a central axle. The blue and green weights are rigidly coupled together. The red weight is rigidly connected to the rest but has a release mechanism which allows it to fall CW.
Initially, the wheel is perfectly balanced. The green pair balance each other and the red weight balances the blue. The blue weight is just touching the hinged cantilever flap .
Next, the the red weight is released and swings towards impacting the lower green weight. Immediately the red weight is released the blue weight bears down on the hinged flap with the full force of gravity.
After impact the red weight recoils CCW back towards its reset position. The impact starts the other three weights rotating CW.
The next picture shows the red weight arriving at its reset position at which point the wheel is back in a completely balanced state with the CW angular momentum given it by the initial fall of the red weight.
The last picture shows the balanced wheel continuing to rotate CW past the lightweight hinged cantilever which has been pushed open.
So the asymmetric action of Newtonian Gravity has led to the generation of rotational energy. In principle this experiment will prove the theoretical argument developed previously.
=================================================================
Of course, to actually carry out this experiment is by no means straightforward. It assumes perfectly elastic impact, absolutely rigid connection between the weights, negligible bearing and air resistance.
However, unless the logic of the previous posts is flawed, systematic attack on the experimental hurdles should lead to a successful outcome.
And why not? After all, we believe Bessler succeeded or we wouldn't be here. It's probable that Keenie and others also succeeded.
Even though my practical skills are minimal I hope to have a go and see how far I can get in systematically overcoming the experimental problems.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
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re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Hi Grimer ,
In your proposal , would it change the total end energy at impact if the weight fell in the first quadrant and then impact , or in the second and then impact , if it is the same consider the following . In the following drawing , the red ball falls from 12 to 3 , then impacting on the green weight (same mass as the top green weight ) which is now spread along the rim from 3 to 9 . On impact the red ball bounces back up and has no balancing effect on the blue ball . Will the blue ball make it up to 12 . To make it more slim , remove the green ball's and place a stop at three the same weight as the hinged stop at 9 . The red ball will fall from 12 to 3 , hit the stop connected to the rim to drive the blue ball .
In your proposal , would it change the total end energy at impact if the weight fell in the first quadrant and then impact , or in the second and then impact , if it is the same consider the following . In the following drawing , the red ball falls from 12 to 3 , then impacting on the green weight (same mass as the top green weight ) which is now spread along the rim from 3 to 9 . On impact the red ball bounces back up and has no balancing effect on the blue ball . Will the blue ball make it up to 12 . To make it more slim , remove the green ball's and place a stop at three the same weight as the hinged stop at 9 . The red ball will fall from 12 to 3 , hit the stop connected to the rim to drive the blue ball .
re: Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-S
Your xenophobia is showing Mr. Cloud, so please tuck in your shirt. It is ok; I will apologize on your behalf to all Australians.
What goes around, comes around.