Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?

[Fletcher]

I found some time this morning - follow the drawings thru I provide as attachments to this post.

I am proposing a new type of balancing mechanism - you might think of it like a Roberval Balance but doesn't required a vertical anchored post.

Forces are fundamental to our universe - you will need to do force analysis.

-fletcher

[mickegg]

Hmm....thought I'd have a try at putting something together.

I've use 15mm copper pipe and compression fittings, modified where needed and assembled much as Fletcher's original idea.

A modified "Compression Tee" serves as the axle and I arranged it to roll on some skateboard bearings that were in the bits box.
Turned up a couple of pistons and fitted O-rings for the seals.
Tried to adjust the groove depth for the lightest interference of the seal to bore that I thought might work.....less than recommended!
I fitted an isolating valve to the axle open pipe leg, as this gave me a relatively easy way to fill and seal the system.
A second isolating valve is fitted on the closed axle pipe to statically balance the filling valve.

Tried to assenble the parts as accurately as possible. The "slack fit" of pipe to pipe fittings proved a bit of a handicap in this regard, as did the
modified tee forming the axle...the two 15mm pipes forming the axle are not aligned as well as I had hoped
However, the setup responds to the adding of a small steel washer (approximate weight one gram) at the piston centres.

I've chosen this particular method of balancing the rig as I would like to run some fluid displacement tests at a later date by connecting to this pipe.

Was going to use brake fluid to fill the test rig but decided to use water...easier to clean up if problems encountered! <grin>


Initial Tests:

With one piston held in and the other out I filled and closed the system.... the pistons responded as expected.
I was able to "toggle" them in and out and the pistons did not appear to have any leaks.

I then topped up and sealed the system with both pistons pulled in their "out" postions.

Allowing the weights to behave as intended I did not see any imbalance.

The weights weigh 120 grams, and although the rig is not perfect, even if a small proportion of this weight were transferred to the fluid I think
the imbalance should have shown.

Pressing the "unloaded weight" down against it's piston (to make sure the piston had put pressure on the fluid) appeared to give rise to some
fluid leakage at the seals.....so not conclusive and I need to try and verify if the fluid is being pressurised or not by just the weight.

Regards

Mick

[daanopperman]

mickegg ,
I think your effort deserves a applause , well done .

[mickegg]

Thanks daan..

Regards

Mick

[Fletcher]

Thanks mickegg for making the effort to look into this - I have computer & now on-going internet problems so a little late in seeing your efforts & acknowledging them.

So far it looks like Mr Newton is safe.

I have a simple workaround in mind but I need to discuss it with you that are interested to see if it's workable - I can't sim these kinds of non-compressible fluid problems & earlier dax made the analogy to a spring - well, a spring is a displacement mechanism while pressurized non-compressible fluid increases fluid energy density there is no displacement so in that regard a spring analogy falls down.

Thanks again for the efforts, we don't see much actual building around here so it was a pleasure.

[mickegg]

Thanks Fletcher

I'm sure you'll agree though, that this one experiment does not decide the matter.

If something works as hoped......there's not much of a problem.

When it doesn't, it produces doubt.

I'm always concerned that perhaps the construction is not up to the task in hand....... leading one to make erroneous conclusions.

Regards

Mick

[Fletcher]

Back on line.

To complete the concept ..

I set out in this thread with the intention to come up with a POP mechanism that could be built & tested for validity & I went thru a series of progressive & more complex steps, building a picture to a reciprocating or rotary device.

The crux of any asymmetric device is the ability to find balance in one configuration & unbalance in another.

I said that I had a new type of theoretical balance mechanism that could achieve that goal - it had similarities to the Roberval Balance - the Roberval has torque issues & will remain upright with the use of a wide base for support - this one does not, IINM.

I propose that my non compressible fluid lever & pantograph balance has no torque wherever a mass is applied in a symmetrical system.

Mass & pressure are scalar quantities - they can be vectored as forces - the use of the pantograph parallelogram redirects weight force to the other side of a symmetrical non compressible fluid filled enclosed container [i.e. pascals principle of undiminished pressure transmission re hydrostatics] - the pantograph is rigidly attached to the fluid container - pressures & forces are spread evenly throughout the liquid, all forces are in equilibrium therefore there is no torque & the system is balanced - the system self adjusts for different mass loadings - like the hydrostatic paradox the total weight of the system is the combined masses however the contention is that torque can be removed.

The 'balance apparatus' does not work upside down & is unbalanced.

[Tarsier79]

IMO, this will not balance unless the vertical post is grounded.

[path_finder]

Hoping this is in relation with this thread: the GRAVIO gravity wheel
http://www.overunity.de/414/hydraulisch ... 5/#msg5295

[Fletcher]

IMO, this will not balance unless the vertical post is grounded.

Your opinion is noted Tarsier.

I will say that even with the pantograph structure should the container be replaced with a solid object such as a length of wood or the liquid replaced with an equal volume of ice then there would be a turning force CCW & you would be right.

As I say, without the pantograph to redirect forces [parallelogram of forces], using a liquid filled container there would also be a turning force but not because of the masses weight force acting vertically thru the liquid but because there is no counter force to oppose the upthrust force internally on the rhs piston interface, hence the need to create an equal down force on the rhs & the need for the pantograph to create a condition of no torque, ala balance [equilibrium of forces].

[Jon J Hutton]

Hey fletcher,

I have been following this for a while and one thing looks intriguing. The piston on the left adding pressure but not imbalance, on the right the pressure changes to force offsetting a lever to cause work to create imbalance.

Am I reading the picture correctly.

[Fletcher]

Hi Jon .. you have to let go of the "Work-Energy Equivalence Principle" doctrine.

There is no volume transfer of merit [like the liquid lever analogy of hydraulics] therefore no Work is Done per se - both pistons apply equal pressure to the internally contained non-compressible fluid - they do this without effectively moving except perhaps at the visually undetectable micro level - there is a static fluid pressure increase which could be measured with pressure gauges.

As a friend said when comparing it to an electrical system, the increase in pressure is like increasing the voltage, & the current would be the flow except there is no flow.

[minnie]

Hi Fletcher,
definitely does what it says on the tin!
Scratching my head as to where to go next.
John.

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher,
definitely does what it says on the tin!
Scratching my head as to where to go next.
John.

Hi John ..

Thanks for the reply - could you elaborate on the meaning of your post please.

My property in NZ got wacked by a tornado yesterday afternoon & there is some damage I will have to organise to have fixed so I could be coming & going.

[minnie]

Hi,
sorry about confusing post.Does exactly what it says on the tin was a U.K.
advertising slogan for paint and is now often used to describe something
that works as described.
Having a struggle transforming it into rotary motion, but can see other
possibilities.
Sorry to hear your property has been damaged, hope it's not too bad.
John.