My latest invention - now what?

[Jon J Hutton]

I decided to post this and ask for help.

This has been a secret invention of mine for the last 3 year. I have studied, refined, researched, revised some more till I am convinced I have this figured out.

A new kind of water pump. So what is next. I am not asking for money. I do not have money for a patent. This probably describes 70% of most inventors situation so I thought it would be good posting it here. I am thinking of doing a kickstarter campaign and not tell how it is made, so if I do not get my goal then nothing is lost. It has sat on the shelf for 3 years and I am tired of looking at it and thinking if only. I have many videos of when I did the testing and how it is made....Sorry I can not show that yet, but as you can tell from the cost it is very simple.

Here is the video link of it running and here are the specs:

Attached is a photo of a comon good 3hp high volume low head pump on the market today

------------------------ Mine------------------------------------------Theirs

Size---------------------3 hp-------------------------------------------3 hp

Gallons per minute----1300------------------------------------------452

weight------------------55 pounds approx-------------------------175 pounds

Price-------------------$913.00 -------------------------------------$2695.00
(the actual pump cost around $120.00 the rest is motor cost)

condition---------------wet or dry------------------------------------wet only

sand and abrasives----all types-------------------------no (not disclosed)

temp range-------------32f to 300f------------------------------32f to 110f

gravel size-------------up to 3/8 inch-----------------------------not disclosed

Caustic material-----I have tried gasoline, thinner, and of course water the last revision i did away with the seal making it able to run dry for weeks or wet. Only 15% to 20% difference in performance still far above competition.



Here is the youtube link www.youtu.be/f_1mVEG99c4

What would you do?

[jim_mich]

OK. What you need to do first is make sure you have very good test data as to what your pump is capable of doing verses the competition pump. There is always the possibility that you are overlooking some factors. Inventors have a tendency to 'love' their babies no matter how ugly they are. For instance, you list shipping weight of the competition verses the weight of your pump. Shipping weight is not the same as actual weight. Shipping weight includes a protective box and pallet for transporting the pump to its destination. Find out what the actual weight of the competition pump.

Also note that the competition pump includes profit. Its actual cost is probably half of its selling price. The competition pump looks like a simple centrifugal pump, which is quite inexpensive to manufacture. Is your baby as simple to make?

The competition pump shows its pumping volume for different heights. Have you tested your pump under the same conditions?

Most electric motors are capable of putting out much more force than they are rated for. When run under greater load than their rating they may rise to the occasion. But the motor will overheat when run continuously at the increased load. Is your pump and motor able to run continuously, or are you putting too great of a load on the motor? Can your pump push water to 30 feet and still maintain the volume while the motor draws the proper amount of current?

What you need do is make very good tests at 5', 10', 15', 20', 25', and 30' using the same 4 inch pipe as the competition and run the pump for maybe 1/2 an hour each test and measure volume and the pump motor temperature to see that it is not overheating. Also measure the electric load that the motor is drawing. What you may find is that your pump is optimized for maximum volume at 10 feet pumping height and cannot handle pumping to 30 feet.

Of course I could be wrong and you could have a new super powerful pump design. but you need very good test data to back up your claims of a super pump.

Assuming your pump is a super pump, next you need a good non-disclosure agreement document in hand and go searching for either an existing pump manufacturer or an angel investor who will, for a percent of the profit, use his/her own funds in an attempt to find a buyer of your invention and be willing to fund the patent costs. In either case, you MUST have very good test data as to the capability of your pump. Don't be deluded into thinking your baby is more beautiful than all others.

There are inventor groups who give other new inventors advice. Stay away from the inventor promotion companies who promise much, take your money, then deliver almost nothing.

Good luck.

[Jon J Hutton]

Thanks Jim,

I like the comment "they like their baby no matter how ugly it is"......cute!

I do not have the testing ability like the big boys do. However I am working on a deal with the eng. dept. of the local university to do testing on this. I am just very concerned about it being stolen.

I used reserved figures on how much the heart of the pump. I can make it for $13.00 using smooth on plastic product......any case will work with this. Mainly because there is so much discussion on the efficiency of the volute with modern pumps, and in my testing I saw why. So if you consider a $300.00 motor with this and double it you are still only talking $1000.00.....but this could also be a proud father talking about his baby (cute) we will see.

I will admit that a 3hp pump has about a 20% range that it can be over burdened, so publications or motor usage is not a bragging point. I have another video of me using a hand drill pumping about 76 gallons per minute that I will post tomorrow. I took careful amp readings with it but the bearing was seized up. In one of the tests I used a variable hertz controller which kept the amps in check and still maintained an incredible gpm.

The gpm were accurate with in 5 gpm because of the ability to play back the video and check water marks on the reserve tank.

In all good advice. I think I will go the university authentication route, and then look for investors either through kickstarter or angels who flap their wings over this. I will see.

You wrote qute a bit and I will edit this post to comment on what you wrote. Thanks Jim.

JJH

[jim_mich]

You could design a very low cost test setup using make-shift tanks made of plywood lined with plastic film inside of a dirt hole near any large body of water, such as a swimming pool, river, or even another very large plastic film lined hole in the ground. You would need a number of pipe sections reaching to 30 feet up the side of a utility pole or suitable tree or maybe a building. Dump the exiting water into the open end of a larger pipe that then exits at the bottom into the shallow make-shift tank. Use a diversion chute to cause the exiting water to flow back to its source. Buy or borrow a volt meter and amp meter to keep tabs on the motor. Set the pump to running while diverting the water. When steady flow has commenced, slip the diversion chute out of the way, allowing the water to fill the make-shift tank. Time how long it takes until it overflows. Put the chute back in place. Uncover a drain hole in the bottom of the make-shift tank to drain it back to the water source. Check the meters while pumping. The main thing you want to know is the steady flow rate of the water, which is calculated by how fast the make-shift tank of a known volume is filled. And you want to know the motor current draw. And maybe a thermometer on the motor.

Shut it off. Add another piece of pipe and run the next test. The primary cost for the test is for pipes, plastic film, maybe some plywood, and some manual labor to move some dirt around. Make the size and shape of the make-shift measuring tank as accurate as possible. Or eliminate the plywood sides and pre-measure how much water the make-shift tank will hold until it overflows. If it is too small you will have trouble timing how fast it fills. Provide an overflow pipe with its opening such that when water starts to flow out the overflow you know exactly how much water has entered the tank. You might need some baffles to keep the water from sloshing around so you know when it is exactly full. Keep the input water at a constant level, else your data will not be accurate. That is why you want a large water source, so that as the measuring tank fills, the water source level does not drop. Or you could have extra water that enters the source tank when its level drops.

You probably could lift the piping using a rope and pulley system, while adding pipe sections at the bottom. I would use PVC pipe and couplings which are designed to be glued, but omit the glue, just press them together with some grease or wax to act as sealant. The piping must be vented at the top so that you don't siphon the water. I visualize the whole test setup costing very little money. You could get very accurate data if you are careful.

Building supply stores usually have large of sheets of plastic film used by building contractors. Be careful to not puncture the plastic film with sharp objects such a stones or sticks or such.

[Jon J Hutton]

Hey Jim,

I understand that the set up you mention is to get an accurate flow rate to amp ratio. I did not see what you are doing with the 30 feet up the telephone pole or tree was about, unless you are wondering max head the pump can push the water. My previous calculations showed 120 (that was only the max with this size. it can be made to pump the same as deep well pumps) feet but I do like the method you posted simply because I can document it all at once to show potential investors through graphs or video or both.

I have a question. I can make this pump small or huge. What size would you use for this test. I can use a fish aquarium size circulation pump, or incredible larger. What would you suggest. I have the formulas to keep the efficiency the same depending on the hp of the motor. One interesting point about this pump is that while it is running you can mechanically, infinitely change the output so that it will pump more gpm or less gpm. Of course the power consumption changes with these changes to optimumly match the motor. But, I am not sure if this is an important application.

You mentioned the importance of keeping the reserve water that is being pumped at the same level. This I can see would be very important but will take some real tweaking of the return water to establish an even flow. We had the motor running 7 hours cool to the touch, but there was alot of splashing in the tank as the water was returning into the reserve tank. The motor was covered to keep dry.

Ok, good advice. Thanks!

JJH

[Tarsier79]

I don't know too much about pumps, but I know there are pumps designed for high volume, and pumps designed for high pressure. My father in law purchased a cheap chinese 4 stroke pump for irrigation from ebay at less than half the price he normally pays. Unfortunately, the pump could not produce the pressure required. Although the motor was a close copy of a Honda, the shaft was a different size, and unable to be used with the old pump hardware. It did however pump a very large volume of water very quickly out of a tank that needed cleaning. Jim gives good advice, make sure you compare oranges with oranges.

[jim_mich]

The pipe up the telephone pole is just a simple accurate method of producing back-pressure for testing how much water can be pumped at a certain pressure or 'head' height. In a laboratory setting, a pressure control valve would be used. You could use the same method. Put a pressure gauge on the pump outlet and then beyond the gauge put a gate valve to restrict the flow. Adjust the gate valve until the pressure gauge reads the pressure equivalent of a certain 'head'. Be aware that such set-ups come with possible error factors. Water flowing past a tee in the line leading to the gauge will not read accurately. To get an accurate reading you should let the water flow into a small tank and then out the other side of the tank, with the pressure gauge at the top of the tank, thus the water is not flowing past the pressure gauge opening. It is these blasted bothersome details that can trip you up.

I would pick two or three size pumps for testing.

One size would be for a typical home well pump. My home water system is probably somewhat typical. The pressure switch, located on my pressure tank in my basement, is set to turn on/off at about 35 & 40 PSI. My upstairs bathroom is 20 feet higher, so I gets 25 to 30 PSI pressure. My well water level fluctuates between 5 & 10 feet below the pressure switch, with the pump submerged in the well. So, bottom line is the pressure at the pump would max out at about 45 PSI, which is a 104 foot 'head'. I don't know what volume is pumped at that pressure. My toilet tanks fill at significantly different speeds depending on the pressure. I would go on-line and look for typical submersible water pumps capable of about 30 to 60 PSI and see what volume of water they pump. I think Granger Co. has an on-line catalog.

The other pump size to test might be a typical drainage pump. These are usually high volume at low pressure. I don't have any experience with such pumps, but would imagine there is some commonly used pump sizes. Or maybe a typical well pump serving a small village, which would be both high volume and high pressure. You might need to do some investigating to arrive at a typical pump size. Maybe test three different pump sizes?

Each pump tested should accurately document the pressure and volume of water pumped and the volts and amps requires for the pumping.

A side note... I have a cheap dial type multimeter for measuring voltage. My line voltage in my rural home is supposed to be 120v. The meter always reads about 138v to 140v. I'm third from the last house on the power line. I would think the voltage would be lower due to voltage drop over the many miles of power line the electricity must travel. Maybe my meter is faulty? Or I've read where the oscillation of the current in an AC line can get out-of-phase from the voltage oscillation. This sometimes happens with large factories, and is corrected by using large capacitors to 'condition' the electricity. My point being that a cheap electric meter or poor line condition might give faulty readings.

You might think about actually testing both your pump and a competition pump, more or less side by side, to see what both will do under identical conditions. This would leave absolutely no doubt as to how much better your 'super' pump performs.

Of course, such testing requires time and money, so decisions must be made as to how much testing to do and if the derived data is worth the time and money invested. You can always attempt to get a potential buyer to do their own testing of your design. Make sure you have good contractual agreements in place. And of course they might make some error when building your pump or while testing it.

An added note... If your pump will deliver more water at a same pressure using the same motor and electricity as the competition, then it will run for a shorter period of time and use less electricity, so it will be more efficient. Alternately if it will pump the same amount of water at the same pressure while putting a smaller load on the motor thus causing the motor to use less electricity, then again it will be more efficient. Or if it will pump the same using a smaller motor, again such would be very good. Either way, it would be an energy saving pump. A very good selling point today. And if it is less costly to manufacture, or can use a smaller motor, so much the better for a potential manufacturer.

Good Luck.

[daanopperman]

Jon J Hutton ,
See V notch weir for cal. water flow , very useful for your application .

[Jon J Hutton]

Thanks Jim and Daanopperman,

I will probably go with 3 pumps one at a time. Starting with the middle size first (750gpm 2hp 1850rpm 10 feet head is what i am shooting for). I wish I had a supplier of smoth on plastics here but will settle with hertalon machinable plastics to do the job for the heart of the project.

Give me time and I will post the results along with how I acheived them to keep myself in check by those who have done this sort of thing before.

This will take some time because things move incredible slow here in Guatemala.

JJH

[murilo]

Jon,
great!
At distance I can feel the 'pressure of an idea'...
This hurts, but is beautiful and priceless!
At years I used some pumps in small mining concerns and I saw many other in use for pure water and even water+solids.
In portuguese, as you know, 'pump' is 'bomba', same as BOMB... something that may explode and cause hazards... 8(
If your project gets a pump that is not very sensible to the air incoming, you have a goal.
Air incoming to chamber is a real mess in starting and/or in running.
When in field, if possible, I avoid pumps and try to use our old and good 'g'.
Congratulations!
M

[Jon J Hutton]

Hola murilo,

Si la bomba, puede funcionar sin problema con aire o si está completamente sumergida, Gracias por su comentario.
Jon

Murilo,
The pump can work without a problem with air or if it is completly submerged.

Thanks

Jon

[Jon J Hutton]

Here is another video I shot 2 years ago. Mind you the bearing was very siezed up. I could bearly turn it with my hand. Still, it managed to pump 65 gpm. With a good bearing it could of done much more, with the drill as a transfer pump on the farm or around the house. The last half of the video is where I changed out the discharge tube to get an idea of pressure. None of the test done so far have been with exact number that investors would like.....I am working on that.

http://youtu.be/0c7zEQs0CE0

Jon

[jim_mich]

Cool! An emergency sump pump for when the electricity fails.

I have an electric drill (like many guys), a 15 amp converter that plugs into a cigarette lighter, a hundred feet of extension cord - enough to reach down to the basement, so all I would need is your pump and about 6 feet of hose or pipe. Can the pump be made for about $15 so that it can sell for about $39.95?

How long would it take to pump 3000 gallons six feet up out of my basement? I hope I never have that much water on my basement floor!!

[murilo]

Hola murilo,

Si la bomba, puede funcionar sin problema con aire o si está completamente sumergida, Gracias por su comentario.
Jon

Murilo,
The pump can work without a problem with air or if it is completly submerged.

Thanks

Jon

Great, Jon!
Great!
Never to forget that if you compose a catalog, people will also look for data of water column x volume performance.
A nice application I can see should be for emergency boat pumps, where no trouble may happen.
Best!
M

[Jon J Hutton]

To make the emergency sump, (like the one seen in the video but smaller)or flood pump which includes pump, and casing for 95 Gallons per minute or (5760 gallons per hour) should cost me $8.82 to make. Not figured into the cost is: Suction and discharge pipe, filter, Light assembly, packaging, advertisement, overhead of operational costs. All parts are high density plastic, (not pvc like in the video) metal bearings.

This should (I have many more tests to run before I can change the word from should to will) pump up 6 feet at 65 gallons per minute using a drill. to clean out a basement that is full of sand or pebbles under 3/8 inch dia would take. 3000 / 65 = about 45 minutes.

I based my pricing on overall cubic inches in raw material of the case and mechanism that does the actual pumping, cast in high density resin from Smooth on products. Then took individual prices for seals, nuts, bearings at lots of 1000 and over for max discount.

Below is a picture of what I found would be my competition.