Big Troubles Brewing For The Theoretical Physics Smart-Set!!!

[jim_mich]

It is nearly impossible to prove a negative. How can you prove that Bessler didn't make a real perpetual motion machine?

We have the historical records that say Bessler built a self-rotating wheel. So it is a historical fact that Bessler built a wheel. It is a historical fact the wheel self-rotated, being that it was supported upon open bearings, and thus it was not rotated by someone in a nearby room.

So, the only unknown fact is how did he do it? Just because current science thinks perpetual motion cannot be done, does not make it impossible.

There are at least two lines of thought. One is a gravity wheel. The other is a motion wheel. A gravity wheel expects weights to somehow continually be lifted out-of-balance. A motion wheel expects weights to gain force from their motions. This is the phrase that Bessler used, "weights gain force from their moving/swinging." We could quibble over the translation as to whether it meant moving or swinging, but both mean motion. So Bessler said his wheel was rotated by the motions of weights.

It is a well-known fact that when the velocity of a weight is doubled then the kinetic energy of the weight quadruples. So if you take the velocity of one moving weight and add that velocity to a second moving weight, then the velocity of the first weight drops to zero, while the velocity of the second weight doubles. The kinetic energy of the first weight drops to zero. But the kinetic energy of the second weight quadruples. The total useable energy of the two weights doubles. If a perpetual motionist is able to tap into this energy then a perpetual motion wheel is possible.

Look at it from a different point of view. Maxwell's Demon was an imaginary being that could sort hot faster moving gas molecules from cold slower moving gas molecules. If the Demon consumed no energy to do the sorting, then the result is a harnessable energy potential between the hot gas and the cold gas, while the total kinetic energy of the two combined gasses remained conserved.

If you have two moving weights, and one weight gives up its motion to the other weight, then the system acts like Maxwell's Demon, except instead of gas molecules being sorted, all of the molecules of a whole weight gains velocity while all of the molecules of another weight loses velocity.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that heat cannot spontaneously move from cold to hot. But if motion can move from a slower moving weight to a faster moving weight, then is accomplishes the same results, which is equivalent to breaking the Second Law of Thermodynamics, except that because the energy transfer is not in the form of heat, (it is in the form of motion) it does not break said law.

So, all that is needed is to find a mechanical means whereby a slower moving weight gives up its motion to a faster moving weight. And then extract some of the increased kinetic energy. Then reset/repeat the procedure endlessly.

[jim_mich]

Usually when I try to express my thoughts that Bessler's wheel was rotated by the motions of its weight, someone will object and say, "But Bessler said that his wheel was turned by weights", implying that gravity acting on out-of-balance weights was the rotating force. Yes, Bessler's wheel was turned by weights. Bessler admitted his wheel was turned by weights. But read closer. Turned by weights does not imply turned by gravity. Turned by gravity is only assumed because the heavy moving objects are labeled as 'weights' and the word 'weights' has multiple meanings. A weight has a number of characteristics. One is gravitational weight. Another is inertia, which is the resistance to motion. Another characteristic is momentum, which is the tendency to keep moving. A motionist is interested in the motion aspects of a weight, which would be its inertial resistance to motion and the weight's momentum force when in motion. Centrifugal force is simply a subset or characteristic of momentum. Weights moving in and out is not proof of an out-of-balance wheel. Two and two weights, two moving out and two moving, in will result in an always balanced wheel where gravity has no effect. Find a mechanism where the in and out motions a weight pair causes unequal forces, (weights gain force from their motions) and you have the solution. Use two such inter-linked mechanisms, and you have an always balanced wheel where gravity no longer fights the weights.

[Tarsier79]

Just as in the Carnot cycle energy is transferred in the expansion leg and the system is reset in the compression leg.

Bessler did it so it must be possible.

My statement was directed at Grimers above conclusion. Bessler did what? Factually speaking, Bessler made a wheel that turned, that is all.

Jim,

If you know the velocities of two weights, a fast moving and a slow moving weight, through mechanical/electronic means, you could transfer its energy to the faster weight. This IMO doesn't break any laws. Fletchers Blackbird thread shows it can be done. It is increasing the energy of the whole system that breaks that law.

Do you follow Pequaids energy thread? He describes the same principle you do.

[cloud camper]

Here is one valid mechanism by which much slower masses (air molecules) continue to add energy to a much faster object. The results speak for themselves.





Energy is added on each loop as the 10 lb non-powered glider suddenly slams into an airmass that adds 45 mph to it's airspeed. As the aircraft continues looping from the higher speed airmass to the lower, it accelerates each time around until 400 mph velocities are attained.

This is not a simple Pelton wheel phenomena as the Pelton wheel cannot achieve a blade tip speed higher than the actual media it is immersed in.
Here we have velocities approaching 10x actual wind speed. This is a binary system at work.

What we have then is a true, in your face, real life Maxwell's demon operating. We are using strictly natural processes to drive the entropy of the system lower and lower. No external power is being applied yet we are adding more and more order to the system. This behavior is not supposed to happen under the 2nd law. This is what a binary system can do for us.

Without air friction, our aircraft would continue to accelerate until G forces ripped it apart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oix6sHKzOLU

[eccentrically1]

Felix Baumgartner set 5 world records for his jump fall:

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/new ... rds-45463/

[rlortie]

Without air friction, our aircraft would continue to accelerate until G forces ripped it apart.

If they did not have air friction yet had the properties of G forces they would not fly!

[cloud camper]

Good catch Ralph - I should have explained that any aircraft is subject to two
forms of drag, induced and parasitic.

The induced drag is a function of wing area and angle of attack. This type of
drag cannot be helped.

The parasitic drag is determined by skin friction. Parasitic drag can be reduced by streamlining the airframe, fairing in or retracting landing gear,
waxing the finish, etc.

So what I should have said is by reducing parasitic drag further acceleration would continue to occur!

[Grimer]

Here is one valid mechanism by which much slower masses (air molecules) continue to add energy to a much faster object. The results speak for themselves.





Energy is added on each loop as the 10 lb non-powered glider suddenly slams into an airmass that adds 45 mph to it's airspeed. As the aircraft continues looping from the higher speed airmass to the lower, it accelerates each time around until 400 mph velocities are attained.

This is not a simple Pelton wheel phenomena as the Pelton wheel cannot achieve a blade tip speed higher than the actual media it is immersed in.
Here we have velocities approaching 10x actual wind speed. This is a binary system at work.

What we have then is a true, in your face, real life Maxwell's demon operating. We are using strictly natural processes to drive the entropy of the system lower and lower. No external power is being applied yet we are adding more and more order to the system. This behavior is not supposed to happen under the 2nd law. This is what a binary system can do for us.

Without air friction, our aircraft would continue to accelerate until G forces ripped it apart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oix6sHKzOLU

This is a most interesting post. What's more it is the most scientific post I have read in a long time.

If we can enlarge upon it with respect to the interaction of pendulums of different length then I think we will be home and dry.

(I would prefer to say we are driving the ectropy of the system higher and higher since I prefer to think in terms of order rather than disorder)

It would be very helpful to me if you could illustrate this galn in speed with an example which shows the glider going from one layer to the other and back again, the speed of the air in the different layers and the increasing speed of the glider in each layer. The number don't need to be mathematically accurate, merely illustrative.

[jim_mich]

Many years ago I read a story on the internet about a young girl who piloted a sail-plane (a glider) along the Appalachia mountains in eastern USA and set a new long distance record as she flew south through a number of states. She would catch the up-draft of wind hitting the mountains to gain height and then use the height to gain speed as she worked her way south.

The current world distance record of 3,008 kilometres (1,869 mi) by Klaus Ohlmann (set on 21 January 2003) was flown using mountain waves in South America.

I have a girl cousin Sylvia who was flying gliders as age 13. She first soloed on her 14th birthday. She flew out of the tiny Napoleon, Michigan airport built by Belford D. Maule near my Uncle Glenn's farm.

The remote-control glider in the video simply uses the up-draft to gain height then uses gravity to gain speed. When the air friction (air drag) reaches a certain level as the plane flies faster, it matches the energy gained from pumping the plane up and down, and a maximum speed limit is reached.

You might call such gliding "unsymmetrical parametric oscillation" as the parameters of the forces during one portion of the cycle are different from the forces of the other portion of the oscillation cycle. Unfortunately gravity is a fixed conservative force and thus cannot by itself produce "unsymmetrical parametric oscillation". Some other force must be involved. With the glider plane, it is the updraft wind which can be turned on and off simply by flying into and out of the location of the updraft and then using the gained height and gravity to increase speed.

Of course, if the updrafts were infinitely high, the glider could rise into outer-space. But the up-drafts always start near the ground and exhaust themselves as they rise. Thermal up-draft can carry a glider higher, but are harder for the glider pilot to find.

[cloud camper]

Yes - sailplane distance records have been set along the Appalachian mountains for decades.

But this is simple Pelton wheel dynamics. Air molecules flowing up the ridge exactly balance the descent rate of the glider. Nice steady state process. This is simple ridge lift used by soaring birds since the dawn of time. Nothing new here whatsoever.

But dynamic soaring is an impact/implulse phenomena (hmm, where have we seen that before?). Here we have the aircraft receiving a massive impact upward each time around from slower moving air molecules that continues to accelerate the aircraft far beyond the wind speed. This is not possible with simple Pelton wheel dynamics.

This is a true Maxwell's demon operating. This is how we power our wheel.

@Frank - I will work on it. I'm somewhat graphically challenged so it may
take a little while!

Please develop your long and short pendulum idea as well!

[eccentrically1]

If the updraft goes higher there must be more energy in it for the plane to convert to GP.

[Grimer]

Yes - sailplane distance records have been set along the Appalachian mountains for decades.

But this is simple Pelton wheel dynamics. Air molecules flowing up the ridge exactly balance the descent rate of the glider. Nice steady state process. This is simple ridge lift used by soaring birds since the dawn of time. Nothing new here whatsoever.

But dynamic soaring is an impact/implulse phenomena (hmm, where have we seen that before?). Here we have the aircraft receiving a massive impact upward each time around from slower moving air molecules that continues to accelerate the aircraft far beyond the wind speed. This is not possible with simple Pelton wheel dynamics.

This is a true Maxwell's demon operating. This is how we power our wheel.

@Frank - I will work on it. I'm somewhat graphically challenged so it may
take a little while!

Please develop your long and short pendulum idea as well!

Good refutation of Jim's argument, Cloud.

What Jim is failing to grasp is that gravity can produce asymmetry and does so in the case of long and short pendulums. Thanks to your posts I can see more clearly how and why the Keenie works.

I think I can also see how to overcome my last stumbling block, i.e. how to get the single weight back into its slot on the outer wheel.

Interestingly enough, transfer of the weight from the outer to the inner wheel bifurcates the balanced wheel into two pendulums. The inner wheel with a single weight is easily recognisable as a pendulum. It is more difficult to recognise the outer wheel with a missing weight as a pendulum because compound pendulums are not as familiar to us as simple pendulums.

In fact the outer pendulum is a compound pendulum with a very, very long period. Thus, you can appreciate that the bifurcation is enormous.

[eccentrically1]

But there is a conversion limit even in aerodynamics.
.

[jim_mich]

What Jim is failing to grasp is that gravity can produce asymmetry and does so in the case of long and short pendulums. Thanks to your posts I can see more clearly how and why the Keenie works.

I think I can also see how to overcome my last stumbling block, i.e. how to get the single weight back into its slot on the outer wheel.

I fully grasp what you are saying. But at the end, you will find that regardless of the paths of rising and falling weights, there is no gain. Using two pendulums makes the arrangement more complicated, but in the end, all forces balance out, and gravity driven pendulums are simply leveraged rising and falling weights.

There is nothing wrong with using pendulums. We assume Bessler's wheel used oscillating weights moving in and out, and such oscillation can be thought of as pendulums, but there are forces other than gravity involved when weights moving in and out within a rotating environment. You must deal with resistance to motion (inertia) and resistance of motion (momentum).

This is a true Maxwell's demon operating.

No, it is not a Maxwell's Demon, because outside energy (the moving wind) is adding external energy to the rising and falling glider.

[Grimer]

I like a man who sticks to his guns - but I disagree.

For example, the Keenie does have weights which move in and out so I can't see what you're on about.