Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

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rlortie
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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by rlortie »

Why do people assume that Bessler's wheel was turned by gravity?
A question that reminds me of my teen-age years, working in a service station that not only washed your windshield and checked your oil, but sold and balanced tires.

Before dynamic balancing machines, you would hang the mounted tire and rim on a spindle and let it find its heavy section which would be on the bottom, here you would chalk mark the position. You then would add a speculative amount of weight at the top of the rim and give it another spin. If it stopped in the same position, you would add more weight to the top. If not you may have to replace the weight with a smaller one.

You continued this procedure until the wheel would stop at various points and was considered balanced.

As for Bessler's play on words, physics says a wheel is balanced when at rest. It may be five pounds heavier on the bottom than on the top. yet in terminology it is considered "balanced" simply because it has come to rest in that given position.

Ralph
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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by primemignonite »

By this newest of yours, Jim, it is no wonder to myself at least, that you are "Highly Regarded", and that I and other struggling lessors caught in the same web, being not of the perpetually elevated elite, are consigned to forever (obviously) dirt-grovel as the merely "Respected" or less (i.e. worse) even!

Over a fair number of years of observing and participating (now nearing SEVEN!), this assignment of rankings DOES-NOT-CHANGE!

Rhetorical Question: in this Greenies deal here, is there not really big, fat and rotting rat to be smelt???

("Oh! DO cry me the blues, James!")


Well, this crab has legs, damn it, and my nice-guy timidity has now deserted me.

And further along this moribund line, why does John Collins not have a ranking of SIX? What more must he do in order to merit such, come forth with the wheel and give it away to all???

To close (mercifully) by this identical means (observance) I think we might now rightly expect to see YOUR wheel, Jimmy, aturning perpetually within . . . say . . . WEEKS???

You do seem to have the last and ultimate answers, so tangible results are expected, naturally. Given all the esteem, gas, doubtless manipulation and whatnot that is likely darkly hidden, how could it be otherwise????

We expect it, sure. We expect it.

DO keep warm.

(Indeed! James too sometimes gets his "snout" full of the BS, and morphs to Wagnerian! Why the Hell not? We were born on the same day, after all.)
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
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Post by jim_mich »

Grimer wrote:Are you saying that there is some "correct method" of pulling a weight in on a horizontal plane and that using this "correct method" as opposed to any other takes less energy than letting it go out?
Method, principle, criteria, mechanism. The correct interactive motion.

Horizontal implies gravitational up and down. Forget gravity. It is not a gravity wheel method. It is an in and out method.

I've might have already said too much.


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Re: re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by getterdone »

rlortie wrote:
Why do people assume that Bessler's wheel was turned by gravity?
A question that reminds me of my teen-age years, working in a service station that not only washed your windshield and checked your oil, but sold and balanced tires.

Before dynamic balancing machines, you would hang the mounted tire and rim on a spindle and let it find its heavy section which would be on the bottom, here you would chalk mark the position. You then would add a speculative amount of weight at the top of the rim and give it another spin. If it stopped in the same position, you would add more weight to the top. If not you may have to replace the weight with a smaller one.

You continued this procedure until the wheel would stop at various points and was considered balanced.

As for Bessler's play on words, physics says a wheel is balanced when at rest. It may be five pounds heavier on the bottom than on the top. yet in terminology it is considered "balanced" simply because it has come to rest in that given position.

Ralph

Hi Ralph, I doubt that besslers wheel ever keeled. It's just an opinion, but I think that his wheels were almost balanced and in the right position would most likely not move at all. then with a gentle push, it would get enough momentum to bring it passed the reset position.

Just a thought

Leo
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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by rlortie »

James wrote:

"Rhetorical Question: in this Greenies deal here, is there not really big, fat and rotting rat to be smelt???"

With your background and knowledge of the arts and music, I feel confident that if I were to mention a producer or director being fluent in the knowledge of "Yes Men" no other reiteration would be required.

I may be wrong, I may be right. I give green dots for integrity and honesty, not for your knowledge and empirical skills related to perpetual motion. They are called "reputation" dots, not a tool to be connected to Dale Carnegie's; "How to win friends and influence people"...

Ralph
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Post by rlortie »

jim_mich wrote:
Grimer wrote:Are you saying that there is some "correct method" of pulling a weight in on a horizontal plane and that using this "correct method" as opposed to any other takes less energy than letting it go out?
Method, principle, criteria, mechanism. The correct interactive motion.

Horizontal implies gravitational up and down. Forget gravity. It is not a gravity wheel method. It is an in and out method.

I've might have already said too much.
I will buy that! To ease your mind, it is my opinion that yes, you have said too much! But never fear, only a proof-of-concept will substantiate the matter, making it perfectly clear.

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Post by Grimer »

jim_mich wrote:...
I've might have already said too much.
...
Which implies there's more but you're not saying.

Fair enough. I leech films from Stagevu and have never contributed any so I'm in no position to complain.
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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by ovyyus »

What's the purpose of saying anything at all if too much might be said? Bessler said a lot yet in the end no one gained anything from it. No one gained anything except Bessler, of course. Maybe that's the purpose of saying anything at all? Now I understand. Same old.
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Post by eccentrically1 »

Nothing's been said that hasn't already been said.
But maybe I've said too much.
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Post by jim_mich »

I agree. Nothing's been said that hasn't already been said.
Bill wrote:Bessler said a lot yet in the end no one gained anything from it.
I've gained a tremendous amount of information from what Bessler said. And I, like many others here, think that what he said has shown me the solution. But I'm getting older, and I don't move as fast, and my personal problems have hindered my building.

------------------------

As a side note, about 6 weeks ago I switched over to a new computer. I have three older computers that still have information on their hard drives, which I might want to access some time, such as tax files, personal files, wheel designs, and such. My computer-whiz son has spent three days now getting my new computer set up so that I can simply open a Window, which then runs a virtual copy of either of two older computers.

So I now have a Windows 7 computer, that contains a clone of my Windows XP computer, and also contains a clone of my Windows 95 computer, all in one computer.

The Windows 95 clone still has a few bugs and needs more work. Tomorrow my son will copy the user files from my old 386 PCDos computer hard drive.

Everything is running on a super fast 240 GB solid-state hard drive, with a 750 GB hybrid hard drive for backup. The computer has a fast quad-core CPU with 8 GB of ram memory. This might be the last computer I ever own. Or maybe not, if I live long enough.

My new computer takes about 14 seconds to hibernate. Then it take 7 seconds to start up again. Some times the computer is waiting for my password before my 21" LCD monitor starts displaying the image. The virtual clones of my older machines take only seconds to load and run.

I hope no one is offended by my posting about my computer. It's just that I think the new computer technology is awesome. I remember a time when families were just starting to buy television sets, and telephones were rotary dial, with six families on my parents party line. And now our computers communicate in second with people all around the world.


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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by ovyyus »

jim_mich wrote:I, like many others here, think that what he said has shown me the solution.
I believe you.
jim_mich wrote:Do I have to slap you forum members on the snout to make you understand?
Like many others before you, you think you might have a solution... but you are yet to build a proof of principle... yet you want to slap forum members on the snout with it. Sure seems like the same old.

Don't mind me Jim, I'm just dissatisfied with this diet of smoke and mirrors. Tease on :D
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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by rlortie »

Jim_Mich wrote:
I've gained a tremendous amount of information from what Bessler said. And I, like many others here, think that what he said has shown me the solution. But I'm getting older, and I don't move as fast, and my personal problems have hindered my building.
It has been at least five years since you last discussed various fabrication procedures. I believe the last mention was using MDF verses dimensional wood framing.

Jim, lets take a long look at reality, you have been defending your principle of Cf being the prime mover for how long now, is it four or five years? How long since you gave any clues that you were actually attempting to build a POP?

If you believe you have the answer, isn't it about time you considered a viable way to do something with it. You are younger than I, but we are both getting up in years. I collaborate with others, you attempt to work alone. There are people out there having the knowledge that has been shared between us.

I have shared my ideas and collaborated with others and their designs. I have made innovations to shared designs.

Unlike Bessler, should I die tonight, I know there is at least one person out there that is familiar with my latest attempt. And many more with knowledge of past failures.

I spend time here on the forum, but I also build. I build from innovation gained through creative thoughts, sitting right here looking at what I am typing or reading.

Are you gaining any cost effectiveness from your investment in an engine lathe and all the related tooling you once claimed to own?

Ralph
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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by Grimer »

Image

If weights are coupled together as in the above diagram then we have an adiabatic exchange situation. During rotation the energy gain in the weight moving out towards the circumference is equal to the energy loss in the weight moving in towards the centre.

Each weight can move from a short pendulum state to a long pendulum state .

But we have met this adiabatic exchange situation before.

Where?

In the Rubber Band Motor (RBM) - and we know that is a gravity mill, albeit a less than unity one. In other words we put more energy in, in the form of heat to make up for losses, than we are getting out in the form of gravitationally induced rotation. If we perfectly insulate the rubber bands to prevent any heat loss then we will have a perfect adiabatic exchange. We will need to apply some external energy to keep the oscillation horizontal but this can be far less that that generated by the out of balance gravitational forces. In other words we will have achieved overunity.

Clearly the RBM is unlikely to ever be developed into a practical gravity motor. However, not only is the mechanism illustrated in the above diagram a likely candidate, if I understand Bessler correctly, it already has been.

In the case of the RBM the "pendulums" are the atom rotations and the molecule rotations, with energy oscillating between the two. In our case the weights when at the smallest distance from the centre correspond to the atom pendulums and the weights when at the greatest distance from the centre correspond to the molecule pendulums.

Moreover the mechanism is an unstable 2 state flip-flop.

To understand why, think of two equal weights hanging over a pulley in a rotating space station. The weights are being pulled towards the floor by the Ersatz Gravitational Field (EGF). If the diameter of the space station is very large then the EGF gradient will be negligible, just as for example the Newtonian Gravitational Field (NGF) gradient at the surface of the earth is negligible. In both cases the friction at the pulley is sufficient to hold the weights in equilibrium irrespective of the distance between two weights.

On the other hand where the diameter of the space station is only a few yards there is a very intense gradient in the EGF. Its strength decreases rapidly as one moves from the space station floor to the centre. At the very centre the EGF strength is zero. Weights hanging at the same distance from the pulley are in unstable equilibrium. If one of the weights moves down slightly it's subject to a greater Ersatz gravitational force; its partner moving up experiences a lesser force. This difference increases until one of the weight hits the floor or over-tops the pulley

Now if we can flip states at 12 and 6 o'clock then we have the makings of a continuously unstable wheel. To do this we need an additional oscillator in the vertical direction. The RBM provides its own vertical oscillator in the elastic spring of the rubber bands but the above mechanism doesn't have that property so we have to provide it with a spring which balances the NGF. Without such a balancing spring it would immediately keel.

So we have two interacting oscillators, a flip-flop oscillator in the horizontal direction and a conventional spring-mass oscillator in the vertical direction.
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re: Gravity Wheel -or- Motion Wheel

Post by rlortie »

Grimer,

A very eloquent, lengthy explanation for explaining another way to end up with a design, changing width for height.

What do you think will happen once you start adding more crossbars? There is no need for farther explanation as it has been stated many times that Bessler has been quoted many times that such a device will not work.

Ralph
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Post by jim_mich »

Look like this:
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