Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

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Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by Grimer »

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The Milkovic pendulum device incorporates mechanical "earthing" which prevents the hammer side falling for most of the pendulum swing. By so doing it introduces the same kind of asymmetry to the action of the Newtonian Gravitational wind as the Keenie.

I have spent a considerable time over the last few weeks wondering how I could arrange for feedback of energy from the hammer side to the pendulum side so as to obtain continuous running - or at least a Proof of Principle.

In the first place it is clear that a 360° pendulum is superior than a Milkovic's smaller arc pendulum since it is clear when reset has been achieved, i.e. when the pendulum returns to its 0° position.

Also the amount of feedback needed to obtain reset can be reduced to a very small value by reducing the friction at the bearing and the air resistance of the pendulum bob and shaft. I suppose the ultimate limit would be a magnetic bearing at the pivot and a hard vacuum enclosure.

By contrast the reset of the Keenie falling weight is limited by the coefficient of elastic impact between the single falling weight and the compound pendulum made up of the remaining weights.

------------------------------

Eventually I realised that neither feedback nor extraordinary improvements of the pendulum are required since the action of the 360° pendulum in rotating the system as a whole leads to divergence between the relative and absolute reset angle. This is best understood from studying the two diagrams above.
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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by iacob alex »

Hi !
I agree with this development of the lever-pendulum pair. It's a normal,natural one...

You can see a test in relation with a full rotation of the pendulum , at :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc6VT2XPTuA

This time , pendulum "plays" as a "hamster in a cage".

Six years ago (Epistemologicide's topic /"Veljko Milkovic device,and some ideas...") you can find a proposal (Mar/05/2007) about "...a full up-down fall of pendulum " ,so to replace the swinging motion with a spinning motion of the pendulum.

This forum has a real problem: there are more monologues,than dialogues and as a result ,everyone is running inside his "labyrinth" ,with twisting passages...

There is big advantage if we use a mobile fulcrum :we can "stir" rotational effects of inertia ,and even more , we can "recuperate " (and use...) the normal/radial component of "g".

By the way :there are so many kinds of physical pendulums...

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Re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by Grimer »

iacob alex wrote: Hi !
I agree with this development of the lever-pendulum pair. It's a normal,natural one...

You can see a test in relation with a full rotation of the pendulum , at :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc6VT2XPTuA

This time , pendulum "plays" as a "hamster in a cage".

Six years ago (Epistemologicide's topic /"Veljko Milkovic device,and some ideas...") you can find a proposal (Mar/05/2007) about "...a full up-down fall of pendulum " ,so to replace the swinging motion with a spinning motion of the pendulum.

This forum has a real problem: there are more monologues, than dialogues and as a result, everyone is running inside his "labyrinth" ,with twisting passages...

There is big advantage if we use a mobile fulcrum :we can "stir" rotational effects of inertia ,and even more , we can "recuperate " (and use...) the normal/radial component of "g".

By the way :there are so many kinds of physical pendulums...

Al_ex
Thanks for your helpful and constructive post, Alex.

I'll have a look at those links and then I'll look forward to having a dialogue with you - even a multilogue ;-) if anyone else has any other constructive contributions.
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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by iacob alex »

Hi !
In my opinion , a gravity motor can have the simplicity of a seesaw with one variable arm,only.

A common pendulum can rotate (starting as an inverted position ) less than 360* (see friction).

A counterweighted pendulum (starting as an inverted position /greater torque "up"...let's say the shape of a metronome... ) ,rotated less than 360*.

A variable counterweighted pendulum (starting as an inverted position/greater torque "up") rotates MORE than 360* (I play them !).

I have a single problem: the size...so to release the centrifugal effect and to remake the starting "up" torque difference.

With this "remake" ,the motion can become repetitive...

I have in mind to use an additional leverage ,alike Milkovic's , so to increase the asymmetry...and to "liberate" the normal/radial component of "g" , in a mobile fulcrum.

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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by Grimer »

I thought it might be helpful to repost the following from another thread since the points made are relevant to the Milkovic Gravity Motor.
Grimer wrote:
Kirk wrote:...
I believe the method is simple and Newtonian. There is no non linearity in position so the answer is not there. What does fit his clue is the balls working in pairs. A large ball dropped a short ways has sufficient momentum to drive a smaller ball to near the top of the wheel. Momentum is highly non-linear A 1 foot drop will give you a quarter of the momentum of a 16 foot drop. The inference is obvious.
There is a connection here between your observation about momentum and the Keenie. Also with the Milkovic proposal I made in my recent post.

In all three cases we are dealing with interactions between large and small masses, large and small inertias.

In the case of the Keenie it is the interaction between a single weight and the remaining weights acting as a whole.

In the case of the Milkovic proposal the differential inertia is more subtle. Superficially it appears that we merely have two masses of identical inertia. However account has to be taken of the one-way clutch. This governs the interaction between the inertia of the active freely rotating mass (the red pendulum bob in my diagram) and the passive mass (the "earthed" green and yellow bob).

The earthed bob has the inertia of the earth when subjected to a counter-clockwise force and its own inertia (equal to that of the active red bob) when subjected to a clockwise force. In effect it acts like a valve which only transmits the clockwise couple part of the active red pendulum's rotation.

I agree that the interaction is highly suggestive though I doubt many members would find it "obvious".
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Re: re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by Grimer »

iacob alex wrote:Hi !
I agree with this development of the lever-pendulum pair. It's a normal,natural one...

You can see a test in relation with a full rotation of the pendulum , at :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc6VT2XPTuA

This time , pendulum "plays" as a "hamster in a cage".

Six years ago (Epistemologicide's topic /"Veljko Milkovic device,and some ideas...") you can find a proposal (Mar/05/2007) about "...a full up-down fall of pendulum " ,so to replace the swinging motion with a spinning motion of the pendulum.

This forum has a real problem: there are more monologues,than dialogues and as a result ,everyone is running inside his "labyrinth" ,with twisting passages...

There is big advantage if we use a mobile fulcrum :we can "stir" rotational effects of inertia ,and even more , we can "recuperate " (and use...) the normal/radial component of "g".

By the way :there are so many kinds of physical pendulums...

Al_ex
I have viewed this link:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc6VT2XPTuA

but have been unable to find the Mar/05/2007 work that you refer to. Could you give more details please.

With regard to the YouTube video, it would be interesting to see how it behaved with a one way clutch. Presumably one will get a sun and planet motion until the energy of the pendulum is exhausted.
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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by iacob alex »

Hi !
Any lever-pendulum design (on paper ) is firstly a mechanic's abstracts.

The real "images" we can see on the sky (earth-moon leverage) ,or so many around us (shadouf,water fountain....trebuchet)

A gravity motor is included ,in my opinion in the same theoretical domain.

That proposal (2007) ,if you read again that topic,was simply to reverse the input motion:swinging the Milkovic's "hammer" so to rotate the pendulum.

I believe that the "slight trace " of a gravity motor is appearing on net...if you have the appropriate first sight vision.

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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by Grimer »

Grimer wrote:...
The earthed bob has the inertia of the earth when subjected to a counter-clockwise force and its own inertia (equal to that of the active red bob) when subjected to a clockwise force. In effect it acts like a valve which only transmits the clockwise couple part of the active red pendulum's rotation.
...
On reflection it's hardly surprising that a gravity mill will incorporate a valve since it is an essential part of a host of energy transducing devices - the crystal set - the one valve wireless set my brother built as a boy (I only took things apart to find out how they worked) - the bicycle tyre - the motorbike engine.

I think I have referred to this valve requirement several times before. The most recent example I can find is given below.

-------------------------------------------------
Posted: 13th February 2013, 8:41 pm Post subject:
eccentrically1 wrote:
From the planet.
Further down:

"This explanation might seem to violate the conservation of energy and momentum, but the spacecraft's effects on the planet have not been considered. The linear momentum gained by the spaceship is equal in magnitude to that lost by the planet, though the planet's enormous mass compared to the spacecraft makes the resulting change in its speed negligibly small. These effects on the planet are so slight (because planets are so much more massive than spacecraft) that they can be ignored in the calculation."
...

I believe that when a gravity mill is finally built it will be evident that the angular momentum of the mill is balance by an opposite and equal angular momentum of the planet. This angular momentum transfer will come about by the incorporation of a one-way clutch into the mill design.
-------------------------------------------------

What had me stumped till now was how to get the pendulum to reset. It was only when I considered a large angle rotation that I could see the solution. Of course one has to seriously reduce the inertia of the connecting gubbins. My present four steel tub arm weigh over 2 Kg in contrast to the weight of the pendulum snooker ball bobs which are only 100 grams each.
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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by cloud camper »

Frank - you've been gone so long I thought something had happened to you!

But I believe you're heading in the right direction.

If I could make any suggestions, it would be to hinge the green weight exactly the same as the red weight.

THEN just do a simple exercise of determining at every 90 degree rotation of
the crossbar where would we want to place the weights that would cause the
crossbar to begin in a totally balanced condition and then 90 degrees later become
maximally unbalanced then back to balanced in another 90 degrees.

Don't worry about impacts for now. That will come later. Also, I believe you
will see the need for two additional weights on the same crossbar.

Glad you're back!
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Post by Grimer »

Can't quite see the point of your suggestion. If the mechanism worked as shown then one would have achieved reset with some energy to spare. One would be virtually home and dry.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily work because there is the implicit assumption that the movement of the pendulum pivot doesn't change the path of the pendulum whereas it obviously does.

Also the action of the pendulum does represent an equivalent impact. I know it doesn't look like an impact but if you turn it edge on and recognise the the weight on the other side only starts to lift when the EG reaches a certain value then one can see the the other side is effectively being struck from below by the EG of the rotating pendulum.

Even if the existing regime worked it hasn't any feedback component. I've being puzzling how to achieve this. I think I have an answer which might work.
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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by daanopperman »

Hi Grimer ,
I think at some stage a congratulation is in order , God bless .
To come to your idea as drawn above , I can see that it suffers from the same keeling effect as all known oob wheels , it will run cw untill the pendulum is at six and then stops rotating even if the pendulum keeps on rotating , the reason for this is the pivot moves along with the wheel/axel , and on the up side you will have a long up for the pendulum , but a short down swing (pivot movement) where you will not have any energy left to transvere , that is what I see .
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re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by cloud camper »

Hey Frank - lookin' good.

Not to interrupt your current idea, but I believe that starting with this structure we can come up with a scheme that would result in an oscillating imbalance along with back emf elimination.

Please continue!
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Re: re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by Grimer »

daanopperman wrote:Hi Grimer ,
I think at some stage a congratulation is in order , God bless .
To come to your idea as drawn above , I can see that it suffers from the same keeling effect as all known oob wheels , it will run cw untill the pendulum is at six and then stops rotating even if the pendulum keeps on rotating , the reason for this is the pivot moves along with the wheel/axel , and on the up side you will have a long up for the pendulum , but a short down swing (pivot movement) where you will not have any energy left to transvere , that is what I see .
Ah! but you would only use it once. It would stay in the balanced condition and another similar mechanism further along the axle would take over. Think of lots of independent cylinders arranged around a crankshaft.

The Keenie operates like this (presumably) with weights being transferred one after another to the inner wheel to do their "dropping" work before being transferred to the outer wheel where they continue on around until the reach their dropping point again.
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Re: re: Towards a Milkovic Gravity Motor

Post by Grimer »

cloud camper wrote:Hey Frank - lookin' good.

Not to interrupt your current idea, but I believe that starting with this structure we can come up with a scheme that would result in an oscillating imbalance along with back emf elimination.

Please continue!
Yep, an oscillation, a bit like one of those buzzers on a simple morse set, is the way I am thinking too.

When a Milko live 360° pendulum (L) has worked up enough Ersatz gravity (EG) to lift its hammer (H) from its grounded state, H will rise to a maximum point and then fall. Now if towards the top of this rise it hit against a solid "earthed" ceiling then, hopefully, it will channel that reflected energy back into E.

With an efficient pendulum one only needs a small amount of energy to return it to top dead centre and restart the cycle.
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