Wheel acceleration...

[jim_mich]

Patents have been granted in some European countries (principally England and Italy) since about the 1600s. The United States began granting patents in 1790.

It is true that "Letters patent" were issued by the King of England during Bessler's time, which did not effect the Germany where Bessler lived. Basicaly you had to convince the King and ask him to issue letters stating you have sole rights to sell your invention.

[ovyyus]

OK Bill and Jonathan. What do you want the disclaimer to say?

I think there are obvious differences between everyone's translations and it would be good to point that out.

[bluesgtr44]

AWWWWW...C'MON GUYS! Acceleration....Acceleration! Read the subject line!

LMAO! I'm really stuck on this one. What kind of weight distribution would it take to reach 50...the big 5-0 rpm's is just 3 revs?? Why 50? That is what his first wheel did. I don't care about Bi-directional...I just want the damned thing to turn...Uhhh, perputually is desired...for more than 3 revs, because that's the best I could do...so far.

Well, I tried some more experiments...Looking for ACCELERATION (dammit)! I was intrigued by a mention on this thread, I believe...about a "rollerball" idea. OK, I used that as a try and had much better results as far as the ability to reach this speed in 3 revs...but still fell very short. Again, no matter what, by the 3rd rev that 3rd quadrant just killed me. I watched as it built speed and the angular momentum and just would not release that weight once it acheived a particular speed.

From this, it seems as though the weight is either being severly diverted or it is eliminated from that quadrant.

Stack your experiments...Make it give you the most highest possible thrust from the get go. Then watch it frame by frame and see the vengeance in that 3rd quadrant. This is where payback is hell. This is where it gets it back. It cannot do it from the 4th quadrant, it has to be in this quadrant.

Everything I have tried leads me to this conclusion. Please, a little clarification.

[Silver Eyes]

Quadrant smadrent, when there are so many possible variables, what about pendulum drop from the 11.00 position.
AND still you don't understand?

Did it really say it reached 50 in 3 revs? I thought that was larger wheels at 26.

[Jonathan]

Sorry Steve, I keep forgetting to address that. There is not enough evidence to clearly indicate what distribution the weights had, there are many and technically infinite numbers of distributions that will result in 50rpm in a few rotations.

[John Collins]

On the other hand I can say with confidence that all of his drawings, and I do mean all, may contain information that should lead to a device using the same method. This implies that he designed all of his drawings right back at the beginning, perhaps roughly or in his mind's eye, and released them gradually over a period of time, encoding the same method of driving his wheel in a continuous stream of hints in several drawings.

I am sorry John but this statement sounds more like something a politician would say, Not the John Collins I have communicated with and respect.

It is my contention, that he designed all his drawings at the beginning in his minds eye as he researched the possibilities of each conception, releasing them after he conceived and tried them. I do not believe that all drawings are related to only his ideas but more of a historical collection that he researched to include in his attempts.

Ouch! Sorry Ralph, I'm certainly no politician!

I phrased my comment deliberately obscurely and so it's bounced back at me. When I said 'all drawings' I meant that we should take into account the drawing outside MT as well as those inside. I didn't mean that we should take 'all' the drawings inside MT as having potential as clues.

John Collins

[ovyyus]

Silver Eyes asked:

Did it really say it reached 50 in 3 revs? I thought that was larger wheels at 26.

Taken from http://www.orffyre.com/quotes.html (quotes sourced from John Collins highly recommended book)

...in relation to the Merseburg wheel:

"Within about one revolution, the machine had aquired a strong and even rotation, even when a box was lifted, which had been filled with six whole bricks weighing together about seventy pounds."

and also:

"The inventor started it with the merest little effort. As soon as just one of the internal weights began to fall, the machine started to revolve with such strength that it turned forty or more times a minute."

...and in relation to the Weissenstein Castle wheel:

"But when I gave it any tolerable degree of velocity, I was always obliged to stop it again by force; for when I let it go, it acquired in two or three turns its greatest velocity, after which it revolved at twenty-five or twenty-six times a minute."

I am unaware of any information relating to specific startup times for the first two 50 RPM unidirectional wheels.

[grim]

The grindstone system used in flour mills is much different than the familiar burrstone system used in grist mills.

[ken_behrendt]

But in all of his writings he purposely left out certain details of his Principle of Perpetual Motion. This is the driving force that propels a workable wheel. Without knowledge of that Principle I think it is impossible to build a successful self-turning wheel. Bessler knew that, therefore all of his drawings and writings contain information that might be useful background information, but they lack all details about that one single vital piece of knowledge.

I could not agree more...the "secret" is the last thing Bessler would have explicitly put into his writings. But, the question I have is: "What is the probability that he would even "encode" it into poetry lines or engraved illustrations?".

ken

[Vic Hays]

I could not agree more...the "secret" is the last thing Bessler would have explicitly put into his writings. But, the question I have is: "What is the probability that he would even "encode" it into poetry lines or engraved illustrations?".
ken

Bessler for years kept his secret, but he really didn't want it a secret. He wanted to sell his device. He may have left little hints just so that if something happened to him his discovery would not be lost . The intrigue of it also sold books to those who wanted to discover his secret. Maybe some people are making too much of his word clues, drawings and pictures, but then again maybe not.

[rlortie]

But in all of his writings he purposely left out certain details of his Principle of Perpetual Motion. This is the driving force that propels a workable wheel. Without knowledge of that Principle I think it is impossible to build a successful self-turning wheel. Bessler knew that, therefore all of his drawings and writings contain information that might be useful background information, but they lack all details about that one single vital piece of knowledge.

I could not agree more...the "secret" is the last thing Bessler would have explicitly put into his writings. But, the question I have is: "What is the probability that he would even "encode" it into poetry lines or engraved illustrations?".

ken

Ken Vic, and Jim,

THe following is not meant to sound vicious, but rather a pep talk.

What is this drift that without knowing Besslers secret, it will be impossible to build one. Come on what kind of statement is this, are we getting a little depresive?

If Bessler built one then that means it's possible not impossible. Do we need to decipher his plans that are being held upside down, so to speak.

I think not! If one has been built to prove feasabilty, its just a frustration of trial and error until some one discover the right mechanism or one that works.

I do not understand why we spend so much time attempting to duplicate his exact wheel without a valid set of prints. Would it not be more productive to march on with the attitude that if he did it,so can we.

At an early age my father was an operating engineer. his legacy to me was the statement:

"You were born with no physical handicaps therefore do not be scared to operate or attempt something that some one else has accomplished. It may take you longer to learn, but do not hesitate to climb on. He was referring to operating heavy earthmoving machinery", but to me the statement applies in all catagory's. (except math)

Bessler did not start with a set of proven plans of a specific device that he copied. Why do most here reiterate that, this is the only way it can be accomplished.

Is this a forum of Bessler wanta-be's or a forum to discuss and dissect ideas. Bessler is in the past, his achievments are not, which are we chasing.

Ralph

[RonS]

Amen Ralph
I have often said, If we took this to an engineering class and said, this has been done. We want you to do it again. Don't care if you have to break any laws, don't leave this room until you have figured it out. I think it would be rediscovered in a short time.
Ron

[jim_mich]

Ralph, me thinks you didn't understand my meaning. After many years of searching and now looking back I see that all other attempts made by me and others pale into insignificance compared to using the Principle. There are numereous ways of using that principle. You might stumble onto a design by accident that uses it, though I think that unlikely.

I did the reverse, I quite by accident stumbled onto the principle first (and was receptive enough to recognized it), then I had to figure out how to make a wheel that makes use of it.

I expect there are many ways to build something that uses the principle. Wheels, marble mobiles, etc. but without understanding the how and why then you are just guessing and hoping something might work.



Ron, a short time? I don't think so! Why hasn't it been rediscovered before now? Hundreds of years with thousands and thousand of people searching?

[Vic Hays]

THe following is not meant to sound vicious, but rather a pep talk.
What is this drift that without knowing Besslers secret, it will be impossible to build one. Come on what kind of statement is this, are we getting a little depresive?

Ralph

My sentiments are along the same lines. I have not delved into all the mystical and hidden thoughts and clues left by Bessler as deeply as some on this forum. Hopefully with our more advanced technology we should be able to rediscover the principle and build gravity motors that far surpass Bessler's. I just did not want to discourage people from going over the fine details as they may possibly uncover something. To each his own.

[rlortie]

Jim,

You stated;
Ron, a short time? I don't think so! Why hasn't it been rediscovered before now? Hundreds of years with thousands and thousand of people searching?

A short time in archeology or geology is a wide spread. 300 years is a drop in the bucket for the advancement of technology and discovery. Look at how many years a PMM was researched before Bessler.

We did not have electric lights and automobiles in 2000 BC, it all came in time. As technology advances the time of discovery becomes shorter.

We may not see it in our generation but I agree with Ron, it will come in a short time. Until then we must remember patience and perseverance.

Ralph