Friendly Little Note

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jim_mich
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Friendly Little Note

Post by jim_mich »

I'd like to post a friendly little note here: - It's well known that you would be rewarded as a great gravity wheel inventor if you could cause a lighter weight to fall and have it lift a heavier weight. Your wheels would then surely rotate. Obviously if you could sort out how to lift a 16 ounce weight using only 4 ounces, you would have a working gravity wheel. On the other hand, if you cannot lift a 4 pound weight with a 1 pound weight, that is if such a feat is impossible, then all your hard efforts are in vain. You can rack your brain and work your fingers to the bone with all sorts of ingenious ideas of moving weights here and there. The only result will be that your wheels will get heavier and heavier. Your wheels would run longer if you left them empty.

I'd like to be very clear about one more point. Many wheel makers think if they arrange for their wheel to be constantly out-of-balance with weight more distant from the wheel center on one side than on the other side, then surely their wheel will keep turning. But everyone must learn this bitter lesson for themselves through personal experience..

Read the following very carefully. Understand that Bessler is actually being sarcastic toward Wagner after Wagner wrote extensively about rising and falling weights turning a wheel.
Bessler, in AP, wrote:But I would just like to add this friendly little note of caution:- A great craftsman would be that man who can "lightly" cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain. He can rack his brains and work his fingers to the bones with all sorts of ingenious ideas about adding extra weights here and there. The only result will be that his wheel will get heavier and heavier - it would run longer if it were empty! Have you ever seen a crowd of starlings squabbling angrily over the crumbs on a stationary mill-wheel? That's what it would be like for such a fellow and his invention, as I know only too well from my own recent experience!

I also think it's a good thing to be completely clear about one further point. Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the centre than the others, then the thing will surely revolve. A few years ago I learned all about this the hard way. And then the truth of the old proverb came home to me that one has to learn through bitter experience. There's a lot more to matters of mechanics than I've revealed to date, but since there's no urgent need involved, I'll refrain from giving more information at the moment.
Here Bessler is writing in reply to Wagner's writings. Wagner made the same assumption as everyone else. He assumed that Bessler's was claiming an over-balanced wheel turned by gravity. Wagner went to great length to explain that this would require a lighter weight to lift a heavier weight. So Bessler answered Wagner in a mocking fashion.

You will not see the humor in Bessler's words until you understand that Bessler is talking about what Wagner had said. Bessler is laughing at Wagner. Bessler says sarcastically, you would be a really great craftsman if you could get a light weight to lift a heavy weight. But if you are unable to sort out how to do that, then your wheel will remain motionless. Note that this paragraph starts out as a warning of advice to any would be wheel builders. At the end he says that if you keep adding weights in an attempt to make lighter weights lift heavier weights, then your wheel will remain motionless.

Bessler claimed a perpetual motion wheel. He never claimed a gravity wheel. People simply assume his wheel was a gravity wheel. Many people can only imagine gravity wheels. Most people cannot imagine a wheel rotated solely by the in and out pumping motions of weights, like a child pumping a swing. They cannot envision anything other than gravity.
Bessler, in AP, wrote:XX Water-power especially is inadequate for perpetual motion

Wagner, red in the face, declares that, just as no arrangement of weights can circle round of its own accord, so too no device using water will work, because water, like other things, cannot artificially be made to rise against its natural tendency, and cause a certain fair Wheel of artistry to turn spontaneously. Oh of course! Its bound to stand still! Wagner says it can't move! Anyone who asks about water is no longer on board the ship.

XXI Here Wagner lists all mechanical implements.

Wagner seems almost to have run out of fancies. He says nothing can be achieved with "mechanical implements", the gist being that my Mobile must be impossible because I designed it to be driven by some "mechanical power". But did I not, in Part One, devote more than one line to a discussion of the type of "excess impetus" that people should look for in my devices? Once more I will humbly extol the virtues of this passage to my next worthy reader. Even Wagner, wherever he is now, will have heard that one pound can cause the raising of more than one pound. He writes that, to date, no one has ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task. He's right! So am I, and does anyone see why? What if I were to teach the proper method of mechanical application? Then people would say: "Now I understand!�
Note that Bessler explains that his wheel was rotated by "excess impetus". In other words his wheel was rotated by more (excess) impulse force in the forward direction than in the reverse direction. The wheel was pushed around by the motions of the weights, and not by gravity. Bessler's early one-direction wheels stored OOB force when they were stopped and then used that OOB force to re-start. Bessler's two-directional wheels were always gravitationally balanced. They required a push so as to start the weights moving. Their reversed mechanisms simply coasted since any motions of its weights caused them to loose force rather than gain force. The forward mechanisms gained force when its weight moved and the moving of its weights inertially pumped the wheel rotation. Gravity force was not a factor in the later wheels. The two-way wheels could have operated laying down sideways if the structure could have supported such a position.

You can either believe Bessler's words, or you can believe what you THINK Bessler said. I'm simply pointing out things. I've attempted before to point out that Bessler never claimed to have a gravity wheel, but was slammed real hard for it. People have this preconceived idea that the only way for a "weight" to rotate a wheel is by using gravity. Weight has more meaning than simply gravity weight force. Weight also implies inertial weight, inertial resistance to motion, and momentum resistance to being stopped once in motion. You cannot have inertia or momentum without weight. In Bessler's early writings he tried to convey the concept that his wheels worked without weights. He was trying to convey the thought that gravity weight was not the motive force. Wagner condemned Bessler by pointing out that obviously his wheel had weights. Bessler said his wheel was turned by weights. But it was like the two of them were speaking different languages. Wagner, like most people, never grasped the concept that it was the motions of the weight and not the gravitational force of the weights that produced the impulse to rotate Bessler's wheels.

OK, I'll now crawl back under my rock else I'll get stoned by flying rocks. I'm simply trying to offer an alternate to the most common concept that Bessler's wheels were rotated by gravity.


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Dwylbtzle
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by Dwylbtzle »

you can lift a four pound weight with a one pound weight with a long enough lever
(and gears are compound levers--and wheels are circular levers)
that's what drives everyone mad frying their brains trying to make a wheel that spins merely from internal mechanical tricks
thinking of THAT

i guess there's the reason if not the excuse for it

but i do agree with everything you said
(well, i couldn't read it ALL--hehe--
so i don't know WHAT all the hell you said in there
lol--but internal-mechanically driven flipper/rollerball/sliderslip wheel?
no--i agree with THAT-- i BELIEVE that every single one involves just more and more complicated ways to fight gravity in order to utilise it)
(but i could be wildly incorrect--let's all always have THAT caveat)



love
dwylbtzle
well friendship

let's wait till the second date at least for that
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pequaide
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by pequaide »

I have no trouble understanding what you are saying; my early wheels were all spinning in a horizontal plane. They were given a certain quantity of energy by hand or from an electric motor. Then the energy produced was compared to the input energy.

The change to a vertical wheel was mostly for safety purposes. If a horizontal wheel loses its tethered mass it can fly in any of 360°. This could damage the lab or injure the experimenter.

Once energy is made however storing it as gravitational potential energy is very handy.

But I agree this is not a balancing act, or imbalancing act, it is a momentum transfer.
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by Dwylbtzle »

well said--and that horizontal wheel would get a slight boost if it were spinning one direction
and a slight drag if it were spinning the other direction
from the energy of the earth's rotation
depending which side of the equator it was on
let us never forget to factor that little feature in
hehe

and me God!--if you had that contraption, you described, EXACTLY on the equator..
it might wobble outta faze--from sheer whirligig confusion
and, yes WOULD ne doubt sheer yer damn weenie off!
8?
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Ed
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by Ed »

You must have a great big well-oiled cherry picker under that rock of yours Jim. :)}

Some people are apparently creatively impaired and can't see ways to make it work with gravity. That's ok. I think they are not mutually exclusive, but I don't have my own rock so that I can preach and run. I guess I will just let people be so they can believe what they want.

Some people think a motion wheel is the end result. We will have these great big wheel farms all over the place, but we can't put a wheel in a plane (too heavy), so flying is out. We can't put a wheel in a car (too heavy), so driving is out. Now who is hung up with gravity? And creatively impaired? A wheel is only the beginning.

You are right about one thing. You can either believe Bessler's words, or you can believe what you THINK Bessler said.

I'm simply pointing out things.
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by Dwylbtzle »

oh i believe one can make a gravity ENGINE
and you could make any engine spin a wheel of course

i just don't think you do it with a free-standing wheel with internal gizmos exclusively
and that if bessler did it--he also utilised something else that we're simply missing
and we wouldn't be the first
nor it
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Post by preoccupied »

Jim_Mich, thank you well said. Motion wheel would be cool. My motion wheel idea is to store motion in a spring. The spring makes the fall a little more forceful if that spring was pulled apart by the motion. I don't know if motion can pull on a spring but that is my current motion bessler wheel idea.

I show in my MS paint picture the red arrows that show where the motion wants to go and a green line that is a spring being stretched by that motion.
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by Dwylbtzle »

yes motion will pull on a spring
and then energy is stored in the molecular lattice of the steel molecules in the spring
and that stored energy is released when the spring is sprung and springs back
but it only gives back what you have spent in storage fees, alas
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by Ed »

jim_mich wrote:Most people cannot imagine a wheel rotated solely by the in and out pumping motions of weights
If Bessler used this in his wheel, people would have witnessed a continuous rpm surge. How do you explain that Taz? :{)
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by jim_mich »

Ed wrote:
jim_mich wrote:Most people cannot imagine a wheel rotated solely by the in and out pumping motions of weights
If Bessler used this in his wheel, people would have witnessed a continuous rpm surge.
Sorry Ed, that is a wrong assumption. It takes time for the weights to move in and out. The in and out motion acts like the motions of a pendulum where the cycle frequency is constant. Thus the wheel rotates at a very constant speed based upon the structural dimensions of the mechanisms. This is why Bessler said he could make his wheels big or small and make them turn slow or fast. The wheels surge up to their operating speed and then hold a constant speed.


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Post by Ed »

The difference is the pendulum doesn't change speed when it's on one side or the other. If the weights take time to move then people would have the ability to detect a change in rpm. You can't have it both ways.
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Post by jim_mich »

Ed, I fail to understand your comment. Could you elaborate at to what you mean?

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Post by smith66 »

This is so funny ! I'm enjoying a good laugh right now.
Let me get this straight, Wagner said water couldn't be used? and Bessler's answer was that having over balanced weights doesn't matter.
Of course, if you're pumping water, the lever/weight would be swinging down. So Bessler was telling the truth, moving a weight further to one side or the other wouldn't make a difference.
er, Jim_Mich, if you lift 16 ounces with a 4 ounce weight, you would be using gravity and leverage.
Myself, I could probably do it pumping water :-)

edited to add; I know with you guys that weights are solid. With Bessler, there is such a thing as being too literal. Bessler was quite capable of abstract tnought.
I'm gonna take it easy until I return to work. And then I'll be able to enjoy building Bessler's Wheel.
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Post by Ed »

jim_mich wrote:Ed, I fail to understand your comment. Could you elaborate at to what you mean?
I guess I need you to answer a question first. For example, if you have a wheel with a 3 foot radius, what is the length of the travel of the weights?

Also, you have been searching the forum a ton lately. Let me save you some time. Here. CPE1704TKS ;-)
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Trevor Lyn Whatford
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re: Friendly Little Note

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Jim_Mich wrote,
I'd like to be very clear about one more point. Many wheel makers think if they arrange for their wheel to be constantly out-of-balance with weight more distant from the wheel center on one side than on the other side, then surely their wheel will keep turning. But everyone must learn this bitter lesson for themselves through personal experience..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J5njCbTNb8 this experiment shows if a wheel is out of balance it will rotate, the water input has no weight with out gravity’s input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MGQJar8dNg) this experiment show a hand pumping the weights inward, and the weights accelerated to twice the speed and twice the distance, the down side is even if you can double your energy input CF takes it away again, so the hand pull energy was lost to CF! you can pump it day long but that would take a energy input, “energy input is needed “ one to get the wheel up to speed and two to keep pulling against CF.

Jim-Mich, Just show us how, or stop going on about it!

Regards, Trevor
I have been wrong before!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
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