Big brother is watching...

[jim_mich]

"Effects" in this Amendment means personal possessions; property. Your wallet, your cell phone and your PDA are examples of "personal effects". However, this amendment is like all the others; the plain meaning is generally ignored, and lawyers argue over minutia.

I agree with you that your cell phone falls under effects but not the transmission itself. You can’t seize the cellphone without a warrant, but the forth is not so clear eavesdropping the signal and the plain meaning becomes not so plain. Does the fourth ban all surveillance operations?

Cell phone transmissions and internet transmissions are no different than 'papers'. They are your communications.

The intent of the fourth amendment is very clear. No government snooping.

[Grimer]

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 099#114099

Maybe I wasn't being paranoid after all. Perhaps we all should watch out for errors like that. It's quite flattering to think that someone is actually spending time on monitoring us bunch of lunatics. 8-)

I also noticed that when I went to my personal page to find the above link it wouldn't come up when I clicked on that little box at the top left hand corner of the post. I had to come to the thread to get the link.

Poor old Raymond. He's for it when they realise his apparatus is generating 1mp. (manpower = 1/10 of a horse power)

The Texas PTB will have him in a secure facility before his feet touch the ground.

Even without any improvement just think how a plethora of man slaves who work night and day and don't need feeding will change the world.

It's true he hasn't closed the loop yet but that's pretty simple. I suggested one possible method here.

[Grimer]

Trevor in Durban seems to be having problems too.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 304#114304

[daxwc]

Jim:

Cell phone transmissions and internet transmissions are no different than 'papers'. They are your communications.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures.�
I guess it is all in the way you interpret it, if you assume papers in the mail system or just your possession. At any rate it is not going to change anytime soon, because they can’t take the risk to change it.

[Dwylbtzle]

Snowden deserves the Nobel Peace Price much more than Obama ever did.

the first nobel prize given on credit

lol

(and now he pours over his death-drone list every morning--deciding who he wants to kill--since, apparently, anyone is open to being an option--US citizen?--whoever--no due process?--whatever---just whoever he declares to be a terrorist)
:{/

[getterdone]

I'm not an expert on the fourth amendment, but it seems to me that if the government needs a warrant to tap in on phone conversations, private e-mails should fall under the same law.

With that said, I still don't understand what gives the Amrican government the right to collect my e-mail, and the ones of everybody on the planet. Don't they have better things they could do with your tax dollars

[Dwylbtzle]

emails would certainly fall under "papers and effects"
but they claim the blanket snooping is only concerning "meta-data"--
meaning who called who--or who wrote to who
and when
and FROM where TO wherever
and no content is stored

and, in that, they are surely LYING

and THEN they say that when they need to snoop farther
then they have some secret law
passed in secret
that lets them do what they want
when reviewed by a secret court
(which, so far, has rubber stamped every single request
NEVER DENIED A SINGLE REQUEST!)

so--in other words:
they do whatever the frick they want
just like in all other countries

i don't even think china or russia even tried to pry anything from the leaker guy
because they already KNEW everything he's claiming

"Oh--american govt pulls the same shit we do?
You don't say!"

probably russia's and china's best use for the guy is to just have him to
be a thumb to stick in america's eye
nothing really there for them to LEARN

***************

now, what bill clinton did is another matter:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... T0EIbAqeNQ

and now WHY is this criminal on the TV and radio, today...blabbing about how great china is?

why isn't he in jail?

[daxwc]

Getterdone if one dirty nuclear terrorist bomb went off and millions of lives could have been saved by surveillance in unison Americans would shill “where was our government�.

[murilo]

daxwc,
I'll tell you something, for true:
you are NOT a moron!
Enjoy!
You are normal! Be happy!
Congrats!
M

[AB Hammer]

Getterdone if one dirty nuclear terrorist bomb went off and millions of lives could have been saved by surveillance in unison Americans would shill “where was our government�.

Well daxwc

They don't worry about terrorist in North Korea either, the government controls all their lives. If we give up our freedom we will be on a similar path.

The bound hate the free so they attack the free until they are bound. Where do you draw the line? I'll stick with the one already drawn. The Constitution and the bill of rights.

[daxwc]

It is definitely a tightrope they have to walk; nobody wants loss of freedoms, but our freedoms were lessened a long time ago, just some didn’t realise it.

[jim_mich]

This Guardian news story mentions two congressmen from Michigan, Justin Amash from the western side of Michigan, and Mike Rogers from my district in south central Michigan. It was Congressman Amash that almost stopped the phone surveillance a few weeks ago. He failed by 12 votes, which means if just 7 more congressmen would have voted with Amash, then his amendment would have passed. Congressman Rogers is the head of the intelligence committee that pushes for ever greater surveillance.

[daxwc]

They can stop the funding to NSA phone records if they wish, but will probably be unfruitful in the long run. My understanding is NSA gets it information from GCHQ which it paid 100 million pounds in the last 3 year and others. They each spy on each other and Five Eyes coordinates all information each agency might need. The information needed will just pop up in another American agency and all that will be destroyed is the old collection of phone calls. Americans are not eavesdropping on themselves; technically they are buying the information about themselves; either way you are going to be spied on Jim. You really think you are going to kill the system that is helping to protect America without a fight? It will just mutate into something else, like Five Eyes takes the bulk of the information.

[Dwylbtzle]

"Anyone who would trade freedom for security deserves neither"
-Benjamin Franklin

[getterdone]

Getterdone if one dirty nuclear terrorist bomb went off and millions of lives could have been saved by surveillance in unison Americans would shill “where was our government�.

Daxwc, I certainly respect your point of view, however I still worry that our goverments are going to far.

As an example, The No Fly list . On it's own it sounds like a good idea for the government to keep track of people that might be dangerous. But then it gets used to punish reporters that report a story that the government doesn't like, protesters have also found themselves on that list for opposing things like fracking, or the bail-outs. Even Cat Stevens , the guy who wrote Peace Train, is on the list. And if you find yourself on that list there's no way to get yourself off of it.

On the subject of Edward Snowden

During the Nuremberg Trials, after WW2, the defence was always the same, I was just fallowing orders from my superiors. The courts said that if your government ask you to do something that you know is not legal you have to refuse. Which is exactly what Mr Snowden did .

The American Government has been giving itself a lot of new powers, The right to detain people indefenitly without charges. the use of torture, and that little thing called the kill list that Dwee was talking about. The DHS has perchased over a Billion round of ammo, and they only operate in the US.

It seems to me we're headed down a slippery slope