Besslers Codes

[hex02a]

Hi Grimer

Nothing so sinister I am a programmer so hex to me stands for hexadecimal number.

I joined the group after buying books off of John Collins but never really felt I have much to add to the discussions going on here regarding Bessler

I very rarely log in but thought I would after seeing Oystein post on JCs blog, to see if he was known here. I thought I would congratulate him as I think he is close.

Myself I have built two models which failed completely :-(

After these failures I decided to look for clues in the Bessler books and have found some clues but as I said cannot connect them up to make any great sense of them.

If I ever have anything useful I would be shouting from the roof tops but until then I will stay quiet unless I have something useful to say.

So thats my story sorry its not more exciting :-)

Terry

[daxwc]

Grimer you need to put the wine down, back away from the rosary beads and go to bed.

[Grimer]

:-)

[Oystein]

Hi Grimer

Nothing so sinister I am a programmer so hex to me stands for hexadecimal number.

I joined the group after buying books off of John Collins but never really felt I have much to add to the discussions going on here regarding Bessler

I very rarely log in but thought I would after seeing Oystein post on JCs blog, to see if he was known here. I thought I would congratulate him as I think he is close.

Myself I have built two models which failed completely :-(

After these failures I decided to look for clues in the Bessler books and have found some clues but as I said cannot connect them up to make any great sense of them.

If I ever have anything useful I would be shouting from the roof tops but until then I will stay quiet unless I have something useful to say.

So thats my story sorry its not more exciting :-)

Terry

Thank you and "welcome" Terry.

[DrWhat]

Oystein, I read with fascination and interest. Obviously eager to hear/read all that you have discovered.

The frustration of not resolving the Bessler riddle has been intense and I have left this endeavour many times just to cope.

I often wonder if that frustration causes many of us to get sick. Without wanting any sympathy I developed fast growing Prostate cancer recently (at age 45!!). Is illness the Bessler curse! (Please have your PSA tests done even at age 40 onwards. It saved my life). In two year's time I wouldn't have been here.

But my point is we are desperate to know the answer. So the sooner you can publish the better. But of course you are under no obligation.

So a big congratulations to you on your discoveries. Fantastic!
You deserve a big applause.

[zoelra]

0ystein,

Did Bessler's first one-way wheel contain 2 of what you call crosses (8 weights total, 4 weights per cross) ?

What I'm really interested in hearing is if there was room for two such things working side by side within the 4 inch wide/deep enclosure.

Thanks,
Rick

[murilo]

DrWatt,
sorry indeed to know about your health issues so I'm glad you already got relief and control of situation!

In other thread we spoke a little upon the question which I call 'prostate industry'!

Nothing more scaring than the urologist menu - even if he's honest and doesn't look at you as you were a piece of meat packed in money!

About cancer, better indicative will be similar cases in family... Thanks GOD this doesn't happen on mine... as I know! B∫

Take care!!!
Best!
M

[Fletcher]

Thanks Oystein.

If the same geometric patterns are appearing again & again albeit in different dimensions [narrow or wide etc] then they convey an important message, as you have observed - their structure & repeatability ensures the message cannot be missed or misinterpreted.

If the objects portrayed or deduced have the ability to open & close then I assume two things.

1. that the basic mech is also hidden in the MT toy's page ?

2. that the mechanism is known to modern engineers, albeit for a different use than Bessler employed it for ?

You inspire me by your rigorous & objective approach that at last an end may be in sight - congratulations !

Yes, also in the toypage. But in the toypage, one item is to be moved a little to complete the whole "formula" by 100% accuracy.

By the way, he also writes that one must "rearrange" the items, so it is "allowed" even though I don`t like it. There are several levels of information/analogies in the toypage. But many of the other (non geometrical/mathematical) is interpretations and left out of the book.

The mechanism itself is not known to modern or 1700s science, (the way it is arranged and applied), but the "devil" or "hero" mechanism that have to be there to solve the puzzle, is known!. And was certainly known to organ builders in the 1700s. Even some of this forum members have drawn the basic "devil"mechanism. I have seen 1 drawing of it in the Besslerwheel archives.

I reviewed your other topic Oystein http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 953#104953 about your deductions that you have generously shared to date.

As I said earlier I have no doubt that you have found evidence of codes & ciphers in Bessler's works - it would be excellent if John Collins had also found some of your codes & ciphers etc as additional independent verification.

As to their meaning I am not yet as sure as you - I understand dax'es point of why would he release a fathomable solution in AP when he was still attempting to sell the wheel for profit, & continued to do so for many years after its publication - that would be a large risk on his behalf - it does not mean that he didn't provide a solution to be deciphered in AP & perhaps he thought the risk acceptable ?

Reading between the lines in the above quote from you I take it that one of the hammermen toys needs to cross to the other side of an axle [one needs to move a little] to complete the mechanical solution, as you see it ?

I would add that many including myself have played around with designs like MT137 where all objects are interconnected & a weight displaced in one position causes tension & shifting [or reestablishment of forces equilibrium] in another area, with a view to achieving mass or torque imbalance on one side of a wheel.

Seok Ho [user 'sequeen'] had a very similar principle based on MT137 many years ago - personally I could never figure how the trading height for width barrier could be broken to cause continuous or temporary torque imbalance sufficient to cause self sustaining rotation - that was because in every scenario but one PE had to be forgone to achieve a lateral shift which ultimately lead to keeling.

Horizontal scissors [storksbills & hammermen toys] are very likely an important pointer to an ultimate gravity powered solution, if one exists - & or course Cf's are always a part of any dynamic action & is probably why the hand drawn top is shown in the toy's page, because it is part of a necessary action - JMO's.

Anyway, it seems you are well down the track having found the hero's mechanism from within Bessler's geometry & how to apply the mechanics correctly - that is way more than most of us would ever come close to achieving in a life time & I hope it all comes together for you with a gravity powered wheel that actually works using known physics & mechanisms.

I will keep reading with interest.

[ovyyus]

FWIW, ditto.

[Oystein]

As to why Bessler incorporated hidden information in every publishing is too late to find out. But you will be really surprised to what extend he went to do so, and how clever he was. His cipher may exceed sir Fr.Bacons ciphers in crativity! The first time I released some proof of some small consistent information I had no idea what it would lead to! "One lead to another" and when the ball started rolling, it was rolling faster and faster so to speak.

The way I see it: The reason Bessler was confident that his cipher would not lead to a premature replication from AP and DT pictures etc. is that you really don`t know what you are looking for. Not without knowing what basic mechanism to look for.

All you will find is alot of "golden" geometry. But when you "know" what to look for (for example somebody steal the idea and it becomes known, or it must be displayed in a courtroom etc) and in addition have the very simple cipher keys, it will appear in clear view. With just the mechanism in hand (and no cipher keys) you will find what pattern that leads to the mechanisms part, and what is just there as a basic geometric grid. When that is established, we can "back-engineer" the non geometric ciphers. This is the way I did it.

AP is basically to go beyond geometry and include words, in the appropriate places.

The mechanisms basics can be deduced from MT without any real ciphers, and gave me many desperate and sleepless nights trying to find out how to apply the mechanism correctly (early December 2012). I then decided to test my deduced mechanism against the little information I had "deciphered" a year ago, and then it all just started rolling.. I then sat down and back-engineered the simple, but clever ciphers just to see if I was correct, or if it lead to more/new information to exclude or include.

The most of my final cipher work (will appear in the book) is done on a daily basis the last 9 months after studying the methods of Fr.Bacon V and RC. (This was all done after my initial release of some simple information I found a year ago). And now extend beyond my wildest "wet cipher dream".

I finished another brilliant AP page two days ago, and yesterday I searched for more pages, but can`t seem to find anymore ciphered information in AP.

NB! The main AP cipher key is confirmed in the Merseburg and Kassel drawings in the numbering system.

Best
Oystein

[johannesbender]

i dont want to come off wrong here , but if you really have a working mechanism and like you are saying besslers hidden secret for that matter

which he bet on and guarded with his life being such an important discovery and all , why would you sell a book about it ?

if you found what was hidden would you not first build it and proof in some way it is operational , and a secret he thought so important to hide away would you not feel the same and hide it until you were duely rewarded ?

if you have the secret wouldnt selling one copy alone put all your hard work out there instantly and no one else would have to buy because news spreads like wildfire ?

if it turns out to be nothing less than pure coincidental hogwash would you not destroy every bit of sanity and your reputatation instantly unless you could show a working device ?

i am sure you thought on such points before even starting to partly reveal things so as to get the hype up for your book , do you have any comments on such points ?

so far all i have seen is geometrical figures wich even i am able to draw up finding any points or lines withing a drawing that were made to be geometrical accurate ...

i believe you wont expose the "cipher" because then your book is useless since perhaps thats all you have to keep
as leavarage to sell the book , but what can you show that makes anyone of us
believe theres real important data to be shared ? as i see it mathematics can be condered up in about every piece of text

[daxwc]

Fletcher:

As to their meaning I am not yet as sure as you - I understand dax'es point of why would he release a fathomable solution in AP when he was still attempting to sell the wheel for profit, & continued to do so for many years after its publication - that would be a large risk on his behalf - it does not mean that he didn't provide a solution to be deciphered in AP & perhaps he thought the risk acceptable ?

Don’t get me wrong I am positive Bessler played all sorts of coding games, but who is he trying to reach. Why use known "Rosicrucian" type codes if you’re trying to keep a secret, when most likely your biggest rival is another Rosicrucian or Mason since these were the scientists and inventers. Wouldn’t it be better to throw red herrings early to the people seeking them as everybody knew he held a secret? If I held the secret I would be putting it where only I could retrieve it and tormenting people in other areas. I just think it is unlikely that the total answer is in AP alone, no paranoid man is going to put it all in the first book because the printer becomes privy to there being a coded message because he has to set the type and format. When somebody who has a known secret uses methods which hide secrets, then no secret is secure; its human nature.




Fletcher:

As I said earlier I have no doubt that you have found evidence of codes & ciphers in Bessler's works - it would be excellent if John Collins had also found some of your codes & ciphers etc as additional independent verification.

I think JC has verified them, but assuming he hasn’t verified the AP or mechanical ones by reading his blog.




Oystein

In AP the "ciphers" leads to known geometric combiations and finally mechanical words that will transform by the same geometry. The geometry is a combination of known gometry that also show the mechanisms main form.

Oystein
All you will find is alot of "golden" geometry. But when you "know" what to look for (for example somebody steal the idea and it becomes known, or it must be displayed in a courtroom etc) and in addition have the very simple cipher keys, it will appear in clear view. With just the mechanism in hand (and no cipher keys) you will find what pattern that leads to the mechanisms part, and what is just there as a basic geometric grid. When that is established, we can "back-engineer" the non geometric ciphers. This is the way I did it.

This is the part I worry about the transformation of the geometry to a mechanism. Sure hope your right Oystein as I know Bessler seems infatuated with a number of geometric figures and ratios! I wish you the best in your quest even if I sounded sceptical as I am sure MT holds the final secret anyway, one has only to look at MT 21 to realise something is going on. One way or another your about to open a huge door to the forum of many 1600’s scientists, who was in fear of religious persecution and how they hid their secrets. Can’t wait to see what you have found! Hope you don’t waste time and try to build for too long.

PS. I am not positive but I don’t think Bessler had any legal recourse in courts if his invention had been stolen in the early 1700’s. The fact that it wasn’t stolen suggests to me that people didn’t understand the final principle when they did get a peek inside.

[Mark]

Oystein

Thank you for clarifying(?) the timeline of your research.

I made a comment back on page two of this thread regarding the drawings that you posted last year, about their being the result of versus the basis for your deciphering. I'm going to have to take a closer look at both that thread and this one this weekend to see if I can get a better grip on all of it. But, I fear that even with a more thorough look at the material and hints that you have presented so far, I still won't understand what you're getting at. More likely, I'll need to wait until I can see all of it before I will understand it.

Personally, I still hope that you are right. It would be nice to put this obsession behind me.

Is it correct that you intend to publish a book that tells and shows all?
If so, can you estimate a publication date?

[daxwc]

johannesbender

i believe you wont expose the "cipher" because then your book is useless since perhaps thats all you have to keep
as leavarage to sell the book , but what can you show that makes anyone of us
believe theres real important data to be shared ?

Leverage to sell the book to 30 regular forum members? I think he is doing his plan the right way, although I would have never gave so much information away if I was going to write a book.

[charly2]

The fact that it wasn’t stolen suggests to me that people didn’t understand the final principle when they did get a peek inside.

I agree 100%, perhaps the mechanism seemed simple but that doesn't mean the real dynamic was as seemed.
He searched where everybody did until he found it, but there was something else that made it different but not understood well, even today, something disregarded for those who got a peek inside.