Forget it

[eccentrically1]

I don't think Bessler was a fraud but I do think he walked a narrow path between the classic "false PM" OOB wheel and his "true PM" OOB wheel. Limited scientific understanding of energy in the early 1700's may have allowed him a limited window of opportunity. Trying to figure out whether or not he was a fraud seems redundant while we still don't know how he did it.

Even without his much coveted sale, Bessler appeared well rewarded for his efforts.

but we'll never know how he did it! unless he reveals it in oysteins codes, which we'll have to wait and see what he says is there, other than his word so far.

he was rewarded, but why did he walk away from his life's work? all that work over all that time then not keep trying to improve it or just give it to the world as it was, since no one believed him anyway, maybe he would have made the money the honest way with a patent. ( i don't want to bring the patent talk up.) but he quit and made a windmill and says it's in the drawings, i'll leave it up to someone to find it and clear my name for me.
some of the drawings show heat or wind, any real solution that wants to clear his name is going to have one or the other or both, unless the maid was truthful, or they were just super efficient flywheels, in my humble opinion.

can anyone remember how long each of the short demonstrations lasted? the box lift was 20 seconds or so, how long did they lift the stamps and the water?

[Oystein]

He did not just give it up. While building the windmill he finalized a new sale and a new machine! He never gave up, just died a litle too early. Leibniz tested the waterscrew for 2 hours. I dont know if any official test included pumping?

[daxwc]

Oystein Quotes:

As i have written, I have shared the conclusion of my findings just so you may appreciate the fact that it is not likely that Bessler was a fraud. A fraudster would not waste time (that will give him no extra money) to hide information of a fraud out in public.

I agree, unless he was feeling part of a secret club.

Bessler said that even Wagner (the great mathematician) was far from experienced enough in the field.

That was Bessler being sarcastic, I believe Wagner was a kid fresh out of university of Leipzig and working in the Saxon court. (I could be wrong, just going from my memory).




The more I think of it Bessler’s fraud could have come slowly if he was using the wheel as a grift first. We know his wheel got taxed because the citizens thought he was making too much money off the public. The question is how much was the wheel drawing in and how often and long was he doing this? When you think about it he was could have been a grifter fairly early in the wheels development and just advanced with the side show.

"My friend, for nearly ten years now you have been keeping a
solemn vow to give a considerable amount to the poor each
week, so for your own benefit take this advice and see to it that
everyone who comes here to view your machine should place a
little blessing in the poor-box."
So I had my assistants make a collection, and the great crowds of
spectators who called on me soon diminished sharply! I was
pleased, because now I was getting some peace and quiet again.
However people wished to know how much money the poor had
received, and soon it became a matter of general knowledge that
(together with the income from my solemn vow) many times more
had been received in alms than had been collected on my
premises. The questioners were greatly ashamed to hear this,
but I stopped the collections.

What forced me to this decision was what happened to me after
giving so much to the poor (to whom I would gladly - I swear -
take the very food from my own mouth.) But, of course, the
jealous ranks of my enemies began reviling me for my charity.
Indeed, Gartner wrote reproaching me for what I did. (1715) But
he never, for instance, tried to stop Wagner from amassing
money for his own benefit! (perhaps no-one would have said
anything if I'd kept the money for myself.) But just look at how my
defamers put about the false rumour that I was raking in money,
like gravel, for my own benefit, profit and sustenance. If I hadn't
taken some of it, I'd have had not a crust in the house; a man has
to eat, and I wasn't earning otherwise at all.

Not only did they whisper this, they publicly accused me, and
reported fanciful tales about me in the capital. This resulted in a
decree (1716) being issued in January to sequestrate each day a
sum of 6 groschen, on account of my machine. AP pg 309

I would like very much to believe Bessler, but there is the other side of the story also which does have some traction and credibility.

[Oystein]

I would like to remind that those first wheels also passed royal tests and got certificates etc, so it is hard to believe that this was some kind of small prank for small money that grew out of hand, if that was your thought?

Finsrud also take a couple of dollars in entrance, as he has no other job than presenting art.

[daxwc]

Oystein

I would like to remind that those first wheels also passed royal tests and got certificates etc, so it is hard to believe that this was some kind of small prank for small money that grew out of hand, if that was your thought?

Well, that was exactly my thought or do we know exactly when Bessler started charging a fee to see his wheel? So he makes a claim of perpetual motion sets up a few demonstrations to feed the fire and peak interest then starts charging a fee for his grift. The scam doesn’t get uncovered so it goes to the next level… so on and so on. Each time brings more money in different ways from the wager, money from Karl, etc. and the ultimate payoff the sale of the wheel.





We know Bessler can lie and deceive due to his statements in AP on why he left Anneberg and the downplaying of why and how he met his wife, which I know JC has more information on coming in his new book.

I decided to go on a trip to the Erz Mountains. I was shown many
things relating to water-mills and mining, and eventually came to
Anneberg, Here I called myself Bessler, and got to know Dr
Schumann, a man of great medical experience. He was mayor, and
chief doctor for the town. His youngest daughter was lying ill,
screaming, tossing to and fro and twisting her limbs. Her parents
were greatly distressed, and had tried, to no avail, many ways of
alleviating her suffering. Looking at her, I said how awful that such a
lovely girl should have to suffer so. Straight away I set to with God's
help, and within an hour I had cured her. As reward I was given the
girl herself! With God's grace I took her hand in marriage - my
dearest darling!

Being married made me, for the first time ever, a properly organised,
home-loving man. But I didn't want to stay in Anneberg, knowing
very well what paths it was my lot to travel, and so I left with my dear
270
new treasure. AP pg 275

Bessler admits to learning and being a charlatan.

“A charlatan is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money, fame or other advantages via some form of pretense or deception.�

I learned true medicinal arts, not the quackery I had dealt in
previously. I was able to practice proper medicine, and learned to
cure those who had suffered in great epidemics.
He taught me how to display a proper air of sympathy to my
patients, so that I could eventually make good money out of them. AP pg 263

At about this time I began to run short of money, and so I turned
to doctoring again. Thank God I was never short of a Frenchman
or suchlike whose good nature I was able to influence, with my
high-flown style of speech, to help me broaden my purse in return
for having his fires quenched. AP pg 268

[rlortie]

daxwc,

That was Bessler being sarcastic, I believe Wagner was a kid fresh out of university of Leipzig and working in the Saxon court. (I could be wrong, just going from my memory).

You are not wrong! Wagner was a young buck on an ego trip, wishing to stand equally among his senior peers. Those that Bessler considered "Starched fops".

Ralph

[jim_mich]

There are a few "Starched fops" here on the forum, who think Bessler was a fraud because they think perpetual motion is impossible.

I'm kind of in the middle ground. I firmly believe that gravity powered PM is impossible.

But I also believe that Bessler's wheel was PM, rotated by a mechanism that gained force from the unique motions of its weights. In other words, a mechanical type of Maxwell's Demon.

[eccentrically1]

He did not just give it up. While building the windmill he finalized a new sale and a new machine! He never gave up, just died a litle too early. Leibniz tested the waterscrew for 2 hours. I dont know if any official test included pumping?

a new sale and a new machine? are you talking about the windmill? that didn't run by itself. the fountain? the ship? did somebody buy those?

[daxwc]

Oystein I don’t know if this helps you in your quest but I know you came along the word hero. Bessler calls Wagner sarcastically a hero in AP or sometimes the hero is directed at the group of them. Just something to keep in mind, although he does call Karl a hero once too.

I've just discovered, from letters coming from Leipzig, that Wagner
has expressed the wish to go to Hesse, and "sing a little tune" if my
Lord [Karl, the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, of whom, more later] is
willing to shove some money his way. Yes, poor little hero, that's
what's wrong, isn't it? I've got it right, haven't I? You're short of
cash, aren't you? AP pg 332

All those would be
heroes will get the message, here and elsewhere, very loud
and clear! But why, one might ask, does the evil enemy latch
only on to my older inventions, and not appear willing to lay bets
on possible future ones? The clear answer is that he wouldn't
trust the construction of a new wheel for the bet -he feels he'd win
on the old one but that I would on the new one! AP pg 297

Let the wolf, the stinking wretch, my enemy, the braggart and
arch-squabbler - let this bigot, this would-be hero, this novice, go
raging into the world - he'll have to learn to tear up and throw away
his baby shoes before he can damage with his lies my life's work.
Whenever Wagner writes in such a vein, he's completely incapable
of believing that my device really is as I've described it. AP 321

But where are
you now, you heroes, who once thought to destroy, with your so
learned demonstrations, the Orffyrean Principle of Perpetual
Motion? DT pg 201

But if any of these would-be heroes thinks he may have a
chance to cause difficulties with hair-splitting arguments about
whether my machine really deserves to be called a Perpetual
Motion device, DT pg 215

[jim_mich]

a new sale and a new machine? are you talking about the windmill? that didn't run by itself. the fountain? the ship? did somebody buy those?

Orffyreus, however continued to offer his machine to Peter. Thus in January, 1725, perhaps only a few days before the death of the Czar, a certain Detlev Klefeker in St. Petersburg offered to go to Germany at his own expense to purchase the perpetual motion machine. Correspondence between this man and Orffyreus continued for several years, but without the result wished for by the inventor. Klefeker was Frederick William's representative at the court of the Czar, which is odd, as he appeared to be working for Peter in this particular circumstance. He evidently had a keen interest in the Orffyrean machine. In any event it was all to no avail. Peter the Great died, aged only fifty-two, on the 28th January, 1725.

Thus ended the events surrounding the Czar's efforts to buy the Orffyrean perpetual motion machine.

This was about 3-1/2 years after the Kassel wheel was destroyed.

IIRC, Bessler was in negotiations with someone in England at the time of his death. And he was trying to sell a fountain or a submarine powered by his wheel.

Also, if you look at the plans for the windmill, is seems to be designed to house a horizontal (laid flat) wheel. If Bessler's wheel was a motion wheel, rather than a gravity wheel, there was space in the windmill for such a horizontal wheel. But that is just my speculation.

[eccentrically1]

hero mechanism and devil mechanism?
hero invented the first steam engine among other things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria
illustrated reenactment for your entertainment:
http://deankotz.deviantart.com/art/Hero ... -346302034

Also, if you look at the plans for the windmill, is seems to be designed to house a horizontal (laid flat) wheel. If Bessler's wheel was a motion wheel, rather than a gravity wheel, there was space in the windmill for such a horizontal wheel. But that is just my speculation.

why would he need to put one in a windmill? won't the wind turn it? would it be for those windless days and he'd need to mill that day?

i'm a starched fop i guess, but the fops called bessler a fraud for a good reason. motion wheels are the same thing as gravity powered wheels. gravity is +/-acceleration between mass, motion is +/-acceleration between mass.

IRC, Bessler was in negotiations with someone in England at the time of his death. And he was trying to sell a fountain or a submarine powered by his wheel.

so he had a sale maybe, 23 years after the last wheel was gone. i don't know, i think he should have done better if he had a real, energy increasing machine.

[Oystein]

a new sale and a new machine? are you talking about the windmill? that didn't run by itself. the fountain? the ship? did somebody buy those?

No, as Jim said.

He had a complete wheel (dismounted) at his house at the time he died. A deal was made with someone from the British Royal Society. And Bessler writes the date of completion in the letter. But some kind of war was going on, so the meeting was postponed. Bessler writes this in a letter where he asks for money for food and some firewood to him and his wife, as it is winter and he is broke and have not gotten his promised "up front" money for the windmill building. In his last letter he still emphasizes his innocence, and that the machine was true.

Sad letter to read actually. He appears as a tired but still great and humble honest man.

[jim_mich]

Bessler was very "worldly". He had traveled to many countries in his youth. And he was not the most honest fellow. He admits to falling in with some bad people. And he knew how crooked people could be.

But he turned his life around. He became more religious. He spent time praying. And he credits God with revealing the wheel secret to him in a dream. So was he still a charlatan and a fraud after (supposedly) discovering his wheel secret?

Bessler writes that he was many things to many people.

Bessler's biggest problem was negotiating a sale. His terms were strict. Place a certain amount of coin in front of him and you get to leave with the wheel. What if it was a fraud? Bessler offered his head. But what if Bessler ran away with the money? I doubt anyone with the equivalent of a couple million dollars would be able to hide for very long. Bessler was fearful that if he let anyone see how the wheel worked before a sale, they would simply take and use the idea without compensating Bessler.

Karl confirmed that the wheel mechanism was very simple. The poor buyer would have the same problem as Bessler. Once the idea was known, then anyone, including lowly carpenter's apprentice, could build and use the wheel. Only kings and rulers with the authority to tax and regulate, could benefit enough to pay Bessler's price.

[ovyyus]

Bessler was fearful that if he let anyone see how the wheel worked before a sale, they would simply take and use the idea without compensating Bessler.

That may also be true but what Bessler said was he feared that after a buyer looked inside his wheel they might want to snatch back their money because it wasn't worth the asking price. Not worth the asking price because it was so simple or because it was somehow less than they expected? After seeing inside the wheel Karl acted like it was less than he expected.

[jim_mich]

You are right. The mechanism was so simple (my opinion, same as Karl's) that some might feel cheated after seeing how simple.