Forget it

[cloud camper]

inertia - noun
[1] (physics) the tendency of matter to remain at rest if at rest, or, if moving, to keep moving in the same direction, unless affected by some outside force
[2] a tendency to remain in a fixed condition without change; disinclination to move or act

friction - noun
[1] a rubbing, esp. of one object against another
[2] disagreement or conflict because of differences of opinion, temperament, etc.
[3] (mechanics) the resistance to motion of two moving objects or surfaces that touch

momentum - noun
[1] the impetus of a moving object
[2] strength or force that keeps growing ⇒ "a campaign that gained momentum"
[3] (physics, mechanics) the product of the mass of a particle, body, etc. and its velocity (abbrev. M)

[/quote]

For the uneducated unstarched fops, inertia is a scalar quantity, momentum is a vector quantity (mathematical cross product of mass and velocity that also includes direction).

Note that inertia is not defined as a force. Inertia is only the resistance to change in direction or speed. Inertia does not become zero when an object is at rest where momentum can be zero relative to the observer.

This exactly explains why Randall's motion theories are unworkable as per his adored fairy physics, a mass allowed to extend in an unpowered rotating wheel performs work due to inertia that adds energy to the system. Masses do not spontaneously gain energy traveling in straight lines due to inertia. There must be a real force applied over a distance to add energy and inertia does not provide this. Work (and therefore energy) can only be added to a system due to application of a real force.

Since we know that CF is merely a manifestation of inertial resistance to change in direction, it is not a force either, which is exactly why it is defined as fictitious and cannot perform work or add real energy to the system.

[Oystein]

how could it not make a difference?

oystein , have you found any math formulas in the codes? the writers of the simpsons smuggled advanced math and physics into that show.

http://www.npr.org/books/titles/2407731 ... pt#excerpt

http://www.npr.org/2013/10/26/240586188 ... e-simpsons

I said that if we use the reasoning used by Ovyyus, it would not matter to Karl if it was gravity PM, motion PM or free energy from the environment. Because Ovyyus thinks Karl wanted a machine to perform certain tasks, like pumping the cascades etc. So if I use all this reasoning and conclude from known facts, the only option left is that the principle did not have enough power vs. size, to perform the Karls desired tasks. I am just trying to use logic to come to conclusions and answers. (To the rest of us it would matter what kind of free energy it was.)

I have not found any grounbreaking free-energy formulas hidden by Bessler, if that is what you mean, but I have found several mathematical and geometric "coincidences" that Bessler used. various geometry that when merged will make new geometry that is equal to the mechanism. And I found that the cipher methods origin is the geometric shape of both the whole mechanism and the special "most secret" function. It is all geometry and some simple math related to God and the devil.

[eccentrically1]

he reasoned that karl would have thought it made a difference if it was pm or renewable, because ' What ruler gives up making history for the cost of keeping his mistress for a year? Something isn't right.'
the power issue for the cascades would have been forgotten if he saw the impossible, don't you think? if money isn't an issue to him, power isn't either. but glory, yes.

new geometry would be a formula for pm. in my humble opinion.

[Oystein]

If the internal energy-system wasn`t what Bessler said, he would not get his money and patronage. In those days, a self propelled machine was a self propelled machine, either from weights only or some "secret substance/matter" that would NB! expand under pressure! As long as you don`t have to refill, Besslers machine would be PM with the known standards of the day. If not PM, Karl would not reward and sponsor him. It had to be the lack of power that held him back. And in my opinion, when knowing the secret principle, this is clear.

By the way, a kind tip to Ovyyus.
Using Besslers method, Bill => Owyyus

[eccentrically1]

If the internal energy-system wasn`t what Bessler said, he would not get his money and patronage.

that's not the way i understand the terms of their deal. i thought karl agreed beforehand to support him if he would let him see it for the smaller price.

In those days, a self propelled machine was a self propelled machine, either from weights only or some "secret substance/matter" that would NB! expand under pressure!

but everyone had the same definition and opinion for what was thought to be impossible, weights only. if it was a substance under pressure or heat, it would still need to be refilled with the substance. everyone knew that too.

As long as you don`t have to refill, Besslers machine would be PM with the known standards of the day. If not PM, Karl would not reward and sponsor him. It had to be the lack of power that held him back. And in my opinion, when knowing the secret principle, this is clear.

we don't know whether or not it refilled itself with something. i keep saying a solution must include a refill, otherwise, karl would have bought it, for the history making angle. karl would have known true pm. power was an issue only if you accept it was not true pm, i.e. it needed refills. if you accept it was true pm, you can't explain turning down the chance to buy it.

[pequaide]

F = ma is the Law of Conservation of Momentum; Ft = mv. And it is Newton's three Laws of Motion. The first Law is a special case of F = ma where F is zero. The third Law merely states that the F works in both direction. F = ma is the second Law and is probably the most experimental proved formula in physics. If the mass is reduced to 1/10 then the velocity would increase to ten.

If energy is to be conserved in the interaction of objects as the antagonists propose then the formula would have to be F = ma²; in one unit of time Ft = mv². If the mass is reduced to 1/10 then the velocity would increase to only the square root of ten. No experimental proof exists for this formula.

[Oystein]

If the internal energy-system wasn`t what Bessler said, he would not get his money and patronage.

that's not the way i understand the terms of their deal. i thought karl agreed beforehand to support him if he would let him see it for the smaller price.

In those days, a self propelled machine was a self propelled machine, either from weights only or some "secret substance/matter" that would NB! expand under pressure!

but everyone had the same definition and opinion for what was thought to be impossible, weights only. if it was a substance under pressure or heat, it would still need to be refilled with the substance. everyone knew that too.

As long as you don`t have to refill, Besslers machine would be PM with the known standards of the day. If not PM, Karl would not reward and sponsor him. It had to be the lack of power that held him back. And in my opinion, when knowing the secret principle, this is clear.

we don't know whether or not it refilled itself with something. i keep saying a solution must include a refill, otherwise, karl would have bought it, for the history making angle. karl would have known true pm. power was an issue only if you accept it was not true pm, i.e. it needed refills. if you accept it was true pm, you can't explain turning down the chance to buy it.

If Karl was fooled, he would have bought it. So he was not fooled. If it needed refill he would not let Bessker build the wheel and be the one handling the money hand over process. Simple facts.

[eccentrically1]

If Karl was fooled, he would have bought it. So he was not fooled. If it needed refill he would not let Bessker build the wheel and be the one handling the money hand over process. Simple facts.

of course he wasn't fooled, he saw it.
it needed refill or he would have bought it.
wouldn't anyone have bought it, if it was the impossible? especially if they could afford it?

the way i understand their deal, he agreed to sponsor bessler regardless of whether it was true pm or not.
he wanted to know how it worked, for the smaller fee to see it, in exchange for his silence.
once he knew, he didn't back out of his part of the deal, or buy it. he kept his word.

[Oystein]

Then you must have understood it wrong. There are no way Karl would be part of a sale of a false PM Machine needing manual refill.
Karl would risk his own life too. As an example I don`t think Peter the great would be very happy with Karl, sponsoring false claims. Remember Karl was be the one who should be handed the 100.000 Thaler!

There is no way the deal included officially supporting a false PM claim.

Bill or John may have more details regarding that deal.

(PS, most people don`t give a s*** about self moving machines. I don`t know any local person that has taken the time to visit Reidar Finsruds machine, and we only need a 30 min. drive by car. Don`t overestimate the impact of a PM Machine on people. And just seeing it online settles a lot of curiosity for the very few more interested people, like Karls peeking inside the wheel)

[ovyyus]

Bessler said the power of his wheel could be made greater or lesser as desired. Bessler insisted that his machine could be constructed to be much more powerful. Therefore, based on Bessler's marketing, lack of power should not have been an issue for Karl.

[eccentrically1]

karl wouldn't have gotten peter's money if peter had bought it. peter's money would have gone to bessler. why would karl have gotten it?

i might have the deal wrong, but there has to be an explanation for why karl didn't buy it after he saw it. that's the only one i can think of.

bessler claimed it was true pm.
karl had to know how he did it.
after he saw it, karl could have dropped the whole deal, and not sponsored bessler at all.
the fact that he did go ahead and sponsor him doesn't prove it was true pm. that is the point.
i've speculated on the fraud section that karl felt empathy for bessler's situation.
finsrud's machine could be AAAA battery powered, it's very weak.

why do you think karl didn't buy it?

[Oystein]

Karl was the one that would keep the money until the buyer was satisfied. If not satisfied, the money would be returned by Karl, and Bessler killed. That was the deal. Karl stood between the buyer and Bessler. Who would do that in those days, if the claims where not true?
¨
About Karl not wanting to pay 100.000 Thaler for a simple machine:

As I wrote, most people really don`t care about PM.
A few people are curious (Karl), but after understanding the principle, they are satisfied. And a very very few would want to pay many millions (todays money) for a simple and huge/clumsy machine that everyone can duplicate.

I think Karl was satisfied with knowing the secret, and could go on with every day business. He could have thought that the principle will be known, and could have machines built then if needed. He knew Bessler would be the famous person, not the Prince paying a huge sum for a simple mechanism he did not even invent himself. He may even be afraid of ridicule after paying so much for "so little". "Look what simple machine I have bought for a large sum?"" Who would think then that it would take another 300 years for it to be replicated. From what Karl said, and how Bessler coded his material it seems like they thought it was likely to be replicated by others, the one simple principle.

[Oystein]

About Finsrud machine. Please investigate before making those claims, would you? Have you been there?

[eccentrically1]

Karl was the one that would keep the money until the buyer was satisfied. If not satisfied, the money would be returned by Karl, and Bessler killed. That was the deal. Karl stood between the buyer and Bessler. Who would do that in those days, if the claims where not true?
¨
About Karl not wanting to pay 100.000 Thaler for a simple machine:

As I wrote, most people really don`t care about PM.
A few people are curious (Karl), but after understanding the principle, they are satisfied. And a very very few would want to pay many millions (todays money) for a simple and huge/clumsy machine that everyone can duplicate.

I think Karl was satisfied with knowing the secret, and could go on with every day business. He could have thought that the principle will be known, and could have machines built then if needed. He knew Bessler would be the famous person, not the Prince paying a huge sum for a simple mechanism he did not even invent himself. He may even be afraid of ridicule after paying so much for "so little". "Look what simple machine I have bought for a large sum?"" Who would think then that it would take another years for it to be replicated. From what Karl said, and how Bessler coded his material it seems like they thought it was likely to be replicated by others, the one simple principle.

what's wrong with karl holding the money until the buyer was satisfied or not?

most people don't care about pm because they know it can't be done.
karl was satisfied , but not because it was true pm.
He wasn't going to buy a simple machine anyone could duplicate because he realized after the secret got out, he would be remembered as the guy that bought a fraud. yes?

[daxwc]

eccentrically1

the way i understand their deal, he agreed to sponsor bessler regardless of whether it was true pm or not.
he wanted to know how it worked, for the smaller fee to see it, in exchange for his silence.
once he knew, he didn't back out of his part of the deal, or buy it. he kept his word.

That is wrong, Karl bought the right to see inside and was to make an attestment if it was true PM in Karl’s opinion, which he did on his own accord. Rulers were much more feared then you are of your rulers today. Bessler was not setting the parameters after Karl seen inside. That said why did it take Karl so long to pay Bessler or did he do all his business like that with his subjects?
It was no a small fee, it was 1/10 of the asking price and Karl would have skinned him alive if he detected an all-out fraud.