Furcurequs (aka Dwayne) questions Jim_Mich

[ovyyus]

Sorry to disappoint Bill, but I stalk nothing but bad physics.

No disappointment here, you're bang on profile. When you've finished pleasuring yourself with Jim, I wonder who is next on your "bad physics" stalking list?

[pequaide]

eccentrically1
What is the equation for perpetual motion?

Answer F = ma

[eccentrically1]

Fundamental Force supplies

F0100 Point masses

Perfect for all experiments involving gravitation, allowing you to specify exactly at what point all the forces will be applied. Lifetime guarantee!

F0101 Point mass tweezers

Ideal for fiddling with those infinitely small point masses

F0102 Point mass ring New!

This ring can easily be attached to any point mass allowing you to tie a string to any of the point masses with greater ease. The ring is also a point-ring so the pointiness of the point masses is not affected by the ring. If you buy 10 rings, you get a free threader making it easier to get that string through the little hole.

F0200 Point charge

Perfect for all electrical field experiment. Available in a large range of charges up to 5C. 2 Year guarantee.

F0300 Magnetic monopoles

These monopoles are avaliable only in matched pairs and are perfect for generating magnetic fields of any intensity.

General Mechanics supplies

M0100 Frictionless planes

Need something to slide all those blocks on? This is the perfect tool. Available in finite and infinite!

M0101 Universal sliding plane (all variables can be set)

An enhanced version of M0100 allowing perfect control over all the variables including static and kinetic coefficients of friction and angles.

M0200 1 dimensional line

Exactly what you need for those one-dimensional experiments – moving charges, masses, falling object with no interactions. 7 day money back guarantee!

M0201 infinite rod

When you need to generate a perfect electric field with no edge effects, or have two charges at infinite distances from each other, this is the perfect tool.

M0202 3d vectors

Exactly the right tool to illustrate any example. Available in a variety of colours and sizes.

M0300 infinite plane (flat or corrugated)

When you need a surface that never ends… you need M0300! If flat is a bit too boring, order the corrugated version!

M0400 infinite cube

Perfect for experiments involving cubes of an infinite size.

M0401 infinite sphere

Similar to the cube, but spherical.

M1120 controllable pulley

Ever wished for a pulley of which you can change to mass, friction and inertia? Well, here it is!

M1450 Massless, inextensible string

Exactly the right tool for all those blocks connected by strings going over pulleys. Goes well with M1450 and M0101.

M1451 Variable mass box

Change the mass with the turn of a knob! Completes the tools for sliding block experiments.

M1760 Spring which always obeys Hooke's Law

No matter how much you stretch, pull and play with this spring, it will always obey Hooke's law to the letter.

M9987 Gravity cider: guarantees perfect results in pendulum prac

Need good results in the pendulum prac? This gravity cider will do the trick. Message from mathematics safety authority: don't drink and derive.

Intrinsic Energy and Entropy equipment

E5000 Energy-meter (KE, PE, various units)

Universal energy meter. Allows you to measure exactly what the state of your objects is, and everything about them. It also converts between 30 different units for energy including joules, horsepower-years and tons of TNT.

E5100 Entropometer

Measures the entropy of a system to 28 significant figures! Guaranteed 50 years.

E5101 Entropy warning light: warns of rising entropy

This light will warn you of rising entropy so you can react quickly.

Thermodynamics equipment

T0100 Ideal gas conversion kit: converts point masses to ideal gas

Converts point masses F0100 to an ideal gas.

T0200 Adiabatic container

Guaranteed to be 100% adiabatic, or twice your money back!

T0250 Massless, thermally insulating thermometer

This thermometer will allow you to measure any temperatures without changing them at all. Its a simple as that.

T0400 Energy extractor: converts heat to energy and optionally reduces mass

Need to cool your food and power your house? This ingenious device extracts the thermal energy from your food and uses it to power your house! It will reduce your electricity bills significantly…

Electronics supplies

L0100 Adjustable resistor

This resistor can be adjusted digitally to an infinite range of resistances, heat dissipations, and sizes. It will even fit inside a point charge!

L0251 Ideal power supply

The name says it all!

L1300 Superconducting wire

Wire with 0 resistance at room temperature, wherever on Earth you are. Tested at up to 2000K. 2 year guarantee.

L2500 Non-Ohmic conductor that obeys Ohm's law

More of a novelty item than a useful physical device.

L2501 Ohmic conductor that does not obey Ohm's law

Again a novelty item for the amateur electronics engineer.

New Age Physics supplies

N1123 Individual photon dispenser

Dispenses individual photons for whatever needs you may have!

N1200 Teaspoon full of electron, neutrons, protons

Next time your recipe says "add two teaspoons of neutrons", you know exactly where to get them. Perfect for constructing miniature pulsars.

N5400 Spectral absorber: set the spectra to be absorbed

Select the spectra to be absorbed. Useful for a wide range of experiments.

N9640 Relativistic studies box

This box establishes a completely contained relativistic environment where you can play with c, G, E0, and even Pi! (Who out there has read Contact by Carl Sagan?)

Student Equipment

S0001 auto-correcting calculator: corrects you mistakes

This intelligent calculator recognises as soon as you type in wrong numbers, automatically correcting them. Perfect for the amateur physicist!

Miscellaneous equipment

X0200 Perfect vacuum flasks

Glass or steel flask containing zero particles in the gaseous or liquid form. Guaranteed to be absolutely empty upon opening.

X0201 Closed system containers

Maintain a perfectly closed system for all those sensitive experiments which require no loss of anything. Guaranteed to stop the escape of all particles and electromagnetic radiation including gamma radiation, neutrinos, gluons and and all their anti-matter counterparts.

[jim_mich]

How to be guilty of plagiarism and copyright infringement.. simply copy and past from another website without giving due and proper credit at to the source of the text.

Source of eccentrically1's post: http://radlinski.org/trebuchet/physbox.html

Fundamental Force supplies

F0100 Point masses

Perfect for all experiments involving gravitation, allowing you to specify exactly at what point all the forces will be applied. Lifetime guarantee!

F0101 Point mass tweezers

Ideal for fiddling with those infinitely small point masses

F0102 Point mass ring New!

This ring can easily be attached to any point mass allowing you to tie a string to any of the point masses with greater ease. The ring is also a point-ring so the pointiness of the point masses is not affected by the ring. If you buy 10 rings, you get a free threader making it easier to get that string through the little hole.

F0200 Point charge

Perfect for all electrical field experiment. Available in a large range of charges up to 5C. 2 Year guarantee.

F0300 Magnetic monopoles

These monopoles are avaliable only in matched pairs and are perfect for generating magnetic fields of any intensity.

General Mechanics supplies

M0100 Frictionless planes

Need something to slide all those blocks on? This is the perfect tool. Available in finite and infinite!

M0101 Universal sliding plane (all variables can be set)

An enhanced version of M0100 allowing perfect control over all the variables including static and kinetic coefficients of friction and angles.

M0200 1 dimensional line

Exactly what you need for those one-dimensional experiments – moving charges, masses, falling object with no interactions. 7 day money back guarantee!

M0201 infinite rod

When you need to generate a perfect electric field with no edge effects, or have two charges at infinite distances from each other, this is the perfect tool.

M0202 3d vectors

Exactly the right tool to illustrate any example. Available in a variety of colours and sizes.

M0300 infinite plane (flat or corrugated)

When you need a surface that never ends… you need M0300! If flat is a bit too boring, order the corrugated version!

M0400 infinite cube

Perfect for experiments involving cubes of an infinite size.

M0401 infinite sphere

Similar to the cube, but spherical.

M1120 controllable pulley

Ever wished for a pulley of which you can change to mass, friction and inertia? Well, here it is!

M1450 Massless, inextensible string

Exactly the right tool for all those blocks connected by strings going over pulleys. Goes well with M1450 and M0101.

M1451 Variable mass box

Change the mass with the turn of a knob! Completes the tools for sliding block experiments.

M1760 Spring which always obeys Hooke's Law

No matter how much you stretch, pull and play with this spring, it will always obey Hooke's law to the letter.

M9987 Gravity cider: guarantees perfect results in pendulum prac

Need good results in the pendulum prac? This gravity cider will do the trick. Message from mathematics safety authority: don't drink and derive.

Intrinsic Energy and Entropy equipment

E5000 Energy-meter (KE, PE, various units)

Universal energy meter. Allows you to measure exactly what the state of your objects is, and everything about them. It also converts between 30 different units for energy including joules, horsepower-years and tons of TNT.

E5100 Entropometer

Measures the entropy of a system to 28 significant figures! Guaranteed 50 years.

E5101 Entropy warning light: warns of rising entropy

This light will warn you of rising entropy so you can react quickly.

Thermodynamics equipment

T0100 Ideal gas conversion kit: converts point masses to ideal gas

Converts point masses F0100 to an ideal gas.

T0200 Adiabatic container

Guaranteed to be 100% adiabatic, or twice your money back!

T0250 Massless, thermally insulating thermometer

This thermometer will allow you to measure any temperatures without changing them at all. Its a simple as that.

T0400 Energy extractor: converts heat to energy and optionally reduces mass

Need to cool your food and power your house? This ingenious device extracts the thermal energy from your food and uses it to power your house! It will reduce your electricity bills significantly…

Electronics supplies

L0100 Adjustable resistor

This resistor can be adjusted digitally to an infinite range of resistances, heat dissipations, and sizes. It will even fit inside a point charge!

L0251 Ideal power supply

The name says it all!

L1300 Superconducting wire

Wire with 0 resistance at room temperature, wherever on Earth you are. Tested at up to 2000K. 2 year guarantee.

L2500 Non-Ohmic conductor that obeys Ohm's law

More of a novelty item than a useful physical device.

L2501 Ohmic conductor that does not obey Ohm's law

Again a novelty item for the amateur electronics engineer.

New Age Physics supplies

N1123 Individual photon dispenser

Dispenses individual photons for whatever needs you may have!

N1200 Teaspoon full of electron, neutrons, protons

Next time your recipe says "add two teaspoons of neutrons", you know exactly where to get them. Perfect for constructing miniature pulsars.

N5400 Spectral absorber: set the spectra to be absorbed

Select the spectra to be absorbed. Useful for a wide range of experiments.

N9640 Relativistic studies box

This box establishes a completely contained relativistic environment where you can play with c, G, E0, and even Pi! (Who out there has read Contact by Carl Sagan?)

Student Equipment

S0001 auto-correcting calculator: corrects you mistakes

This intelligent calculator recognises as soon as you type in wrong numbers, automatically correcting them. Perfect for the amateur physicist!

Miscellaneous equipment

X0200 Perfect vacuum flasks

Glass or steel flask containing zero particles in the gaseous or liquid form. Guaranteed to be absolutely empty upon opening.

X0201 Closed system containers

Maintain a perfectly closed system for all those sensitive experiments which require no loss of anything. Guaranteed to stop the escape of all particles and electromagnetic radiation including gamma radiation, neutrinos, gluons and and all their anti-matter counterparts.

Some people are just not very bright.

Note that at the bottom of the source page it states: © Filip Radlinski 1997

[eccentrically1]

thanks, jim. and thanks to the anonymous tutors and students that filip originally plagiarized.

so if F= ma is the equation for PM, why can't anyone construct a machine using it?

[eccentrically1]

why can't mass accelerate itself continuously and indefinitely? what conditions would the universe need for that to occur? all of the pieces of equipment would exist, i guess, mr. randall :)

[murilo]

Now I lost the fear to mistake: since the beginning this thread is a full/fool gutstorm!
Pls, prove me wrong! B∫

[eccentrically1]

this thread is a full/fool gutstorm?
do you mean people trying to show why pm is possible or not?
that would make it a full/fool gutstorm, then.

[rasselasss]

Wriggle...to move to and fro.....

[Furcurequs]

I would like to apologize for having just stopped posting for a while in this thread. With my health problems it's just too difficult for me to keep up at times.

I certainly do still have some things to say in this thread, however, and so I'm working on some posts.

pequaide, I've even found some stuff to share that you might be able to use.

So, more to come...

Dwayne

[Furcurequs]

pequaide,

Before I get back to addressing jim_mich's mistaken math, which he still seems to be in denial about to some degree, I thought I would just go ahead and address your stuff since I already had most of this post written.

In the thread I spoke of in which jim_mich had that mistaken math, you seem to have also been mistaken in yours. We know why yours is wrong, though, as I and apparently several others have tried to explain to you before. You leave one of "r"'s out of the moment of inertia equations - while apparently just choosing not to accept what are accepted fundamentals of physics.

Now, with that said, to address one of your questions about the Smokin' Lamas:

We know that the distance of 1776 feet is the horizontal distance that the pumpkin traveled while it was in the air. During the travel time, though, it also both ascended and then descended in the vertical.

So, to get a rough ball park figure for the minimum launch speed, we can easily do some calculations assuming no air resistance and that the pumpkin was launched from the same vertical level as that on which it landed. For maximum range with no air resistance we would have also wanted to have launched at a 45 degree angle, too.

That means that the magnitude of the launch velocity (v) multiplied by the sine of 45 degrees will give us the magnitude of the velocity in the vertical and the magnitude of the launch velocity (v) multiplied by the cosine of 45 degrees will give us the magnitude of the velocity in the horizontal.

We know that the velocity in the vertical is slowed to a stop during the ascent by the acceleration due to gravity (g) and then the acceleration due to gravity (g) then speeds it back up in the opposite direction. Since "g" is a constant, we know that the time of ascent must also equal the time of descent (again, assuming no air resistance ) and that the final speed in the vertical will be the same as the initial speed but in the opposite direction.

Let's now set up our equations:

v * sin(45degrees) - 32.2 feet/second^2 * t = 0 feet/second

In the above equation "v" is the magnitude of the launch velocity and "t" is the time of ascent - or the time it takes the pumpkin to come to a stop in the vertical direction.

We now have one equation and two unknowns, so we need another equation:

v * cos(45 degrees) * (2 * t) = 1776 ft

In this second equation "v" is again the magnitude of our launch velocity and "t" is again the time of ascent, so the speed in the horizontal multiplied by the total time in the air equals our horizontal distance traveled and so I'm multiplying "t" by 2 in this equation since the time of ascent and descent are equal.

Now we can solve for the initial velocity "v" (and leaving out some gory details):

v = ( ( 1776 feet * 32.2 feet / second^2 ) / (2 * sin ( 45 degrees) * cos ( 45 degrees ) ) )^0.5

v = 239 feet/second or 163 miles/hour

t = 5.25 seconds , so total time in the air is about 10.5 seconds

Anyway, that should be a pretty good ball park figure for a minimum launch speed. The actual launch speed would, of course, have to have been greater due to air resistance losses. Also, one might want to consider and possibly correct for differences in the vertical height of the launch and the landing positions if one had more data.

I actually went seeking some data and found this nice video of a side view of a Smokin' Lamas pumpkin toss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsjzJKKhMlU

I extracted the videos frames of just the launch and put them in this slow motion animated gif:



You can see that the pumpkin is quite clear and that there seems to have been very little motion blur. So, I decided I'd just overlay the pumpkin from several different frames onto one and got this:



While the pumpkin is in the air the camera also seems to be pretty stable, too, so that was quite fortunate.

Here is the same thing but with the sling from the previous three frames also overlaid, but unfortunately I've noticed that it appears there may actually be a missing - as in a "dropped" - frame from the video right around the actual time of release. There is more than twice the distance between the first view of the pumpkin in the air and the last view of the pumpkin in the sling than between any other two shots of the pumpkin in consecutive frames, so unless at the release the pumpkin lost over half its speed and over 3/4ths its kinetic energy - which almost certainly wouldn't have happened - there is indeed a problem with the video.



Anyway, if we just look at the intervals between pumpkins in the air, though, we can see that the first apparently reliable interval is very close to the same distance as the diameter of the wheel. Guessing at around a 6 foot diameter for the wheel (after having seen pictures of people standing next to it) and using the frame rate of 29.33 frames per second, that would put the speed of the pumpkin at about 6 feet * 29.33/second or approximately 176 feet per second which works out to be about 120 miles/hour.

In this animated gif I made from frames taken from immediately before the launch you can see that the wheel turns just slightly more than a full turn in 5 video frames.



Here is an animated gif using only the zeroth and fifth frame from the above and so if you look at the end of the red spiral you can see just how close to the same position they are. I chose these frames so you can use the spot of sunlight and/or the line there in the background as a reference.



Anyway, this would indicate that the speed of the wheel is around 360 rpm.

It's hard for me to find specific details, but I did find on the Smokin' Lamas Facebook page that the latest wheel (which I'm not really sure that this is, btw) weighs in at 665 pounds.

If the wheel in this video is the 665 pound version and the mass were distributed uniformly as if in a solid cylinder, then at this rotational speed the wheel should have had over 10 times the energy that the flying pumpkin ends up with. If the mass were mostly in the rim, it would have been over 20 times the energy of the pumpkin.

So, most of the wheel mass may actually be concentrated near the center here.

You said the tether length doesn't matter, but by drawing a line through the pumpkins shown in the air and then drawing a line through the center of the wheel that is at right angles to that, we can determine the moment arm and calculate the angular momentum of the pumpkin around the center of the wheel.

I wish I had more details about the wheel itself, like the actual mass distribution and where the pumpkin rides in the wheel before it is launched, so that I could properly model the whole thing, but one might be able to get approximations for those things using equations based upon the conservation of energy and the conservation of angular momentum.

After thinking about it, if these folks knew their physics they could probably reduce the wheel mass significantly and get the same results. With a (2x) bicycle wheel type design with most of the mass near the rims, they could maybe reduce the weight to nearly 1/10th of what they have. It would be a lot easier to transport and mount, I would think.

Of course, though, without really knowing specifics about what they really do have, I'm just sort of speculating. There may also be some strength considerations that come in to play, too.

Oh, also, from reading the rules of the main punkin chunkin contest that they enter, it seems the person pedaling their wheel up to speed only has a maximum of two minutes in which to do that.

From what I've read, weightlifters can for very brief periods put out nearly 3 horsepower in an anaerobic effort. More sustained aerobic efforts like that of cyclists, though, max out at only a little over half a horsepower.

Highly trained cyclists can supposedly output around 400 watts for as long as an hour. "Highly trained," though, in cycling probably also includes the taking of illegal performance enhancing drugs and blood doping, if you keep up with such things. ...haha

Also, with actual cycling the body is cooled from the motion through the air which ups the sustainable power output too, since the body itself is essentially a heat engine that works more efficiently when kept cool.

Anyway, if the guy doing the pedaling was putting out about 1/3 horsepower for 2 minutes to bring the wheel up to speed, that would be about 3 times the energy the pumpkin has here - if my quick calculations were correct.

In other words, they are not getting something for nothing.

Also (and as even with Bessler's wheel) it would be rather nice to have some data on the air resistance of an actual spinning disk like that to know how much energy was wasted just getting the thing up to speed.

Pequaide, I do like your experiments and I think it would probably be a good thing to better understand how quickly and efficiently energy from a flywheel can be transferred to a projectile using a tether like that, but still, there seems to be no sign of any excess energy in these experiments and they are quite well modeled and explained using traditional concepts and math. ...if, of course, one has all the correct parameters.

BTW, I just put out over 1/2 a horsepower myself doing A chin-up! I'd need to do 120 in two minutes, though, to be able to sustain that. Maybe I should move to jumping jacks. ...or squat thrusts?

Take care.

Dwayne

[murilo]

Above device is really spectacular!

The wheel must gain speed and the 'system' must trigger/relief the 'bullet' at exact quadrant! HUGE! Beautiful and danger! B)

[TGM]

No, Bessler is telling everyone that all gravity wheel work is in vain.

Bessler said his wheel is rotated by weights that gain force from their motions.
Thus it is a motion wheel and not a gravity wheel.

OK...would your wheel operate in a zero gravity environment?

I suspect it is the momentum of the wheel mass that provides the work accomplished, and it needs gravity to function.

[jim_mich]

OK...would your wheel operate in a zero gravity environment?

I've been asked this question before. The answer is still the same. Yes, my wheel would work in zero gravity. It does not need to use gravity.

[preoccupied]

Jim_Mich does your wheel produce and impulse? Can its impulse device move an automobile or spacecraft with enough torque applied?