Another claim to a working device...

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MrVibrating
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by MrVibrating »

@Red_Sunset

Hi and thanks; i did see your posts on OU.com (Fletcher here gave a link to the thread) and was likewise impressed with your work - in fact i thought i might as well leave you guys to it, as i'd hardly made any inroads at that point.

It was only after reading the patent application that i began to grasp what the rig was supposed to do, and so had to try it for myself - it's not too far astray from the topic here and might even have helped..

And i like your line of thinking. The efficiency of a crank is an interesting dynamic, precisely because of the effective force variation as a function of angle. Some of the most important Bessler images also depict crank mechanisms - the con-rod is mis-labelled as a "piston" due variations between modern and historical terminologies, i think.. but there's one aspect of a crank's operation i find particularly interesting, which i'll come back to after addressing your points...


Image

There must be some kind of image editing software that can measure irregular areas for you, but i dunno - to do this myself i'd have to go cell-by-cell. Just from crude estimation though, i count roughly 5.5 under the first half and about 4.5 over the second half, so there does seem to be an asymmetry of about 5% between positive and negative torques, with the former being greater as you suggest.

Let's ignore for now that this is 95% smaller than the asymmetry claimed in the application, and ask whether this could be an actual energy/work asymmetry.

We have more positive torque than negative, but while superficially encouraging (it's certainly the right trend) we have to consider it in terms of the total work in vs out; which ultimately is MassGravityHeight in/out, not whatever's going on on the crank.

And it all comes down to this intrinsic inefficiency of cranks per se: as you point out, the output is a function of angle, hence we must remember that some of the area outside of the curve represents energy lobbed off of the input integral..! As you allude, the sin/cos line can only have a maximum of the peak force available, but any minimum of it down to zero (ie. in the zero degrees TDC and corresponding BDC positions described in the application and reproduced here).

In short, if we connect a crank to a vertically-falling weight via pulleys and chord, the crank cannot exploit the full force available throughout the drop, because most of the time the torque is below the maximum vertical force available. Thus one full cycle of the crank in this mechanism yields a loss on the way down, and a slightly smaller loss on the way back up. It's an asymmetric balance of input vs output losses, more lossy on the way down, and more efficient on the way back up.

Hence the fact that there's more positive than negative torque isn't enough to render an energy or work asymmetry, since there simply isn't enough torque to complete a full rotation in either direction.

This is a point to consider when viewing the above traces - the axes show torque vs time and don't mention angle, so one might reasonably assume the interactions span a full 360° - i probably should've clarified this earlier - they actually only represent about 350° of rotation, since this was the most it could manage, in either of the three configurations.

Hence both the positive and negative integrals depict somewhat less than 180° of angle, and obviously, the type of asymmetry we're after would show us an uneven distribution of +/- torque across a full 360° cycle - say 185 / 175, or whatever. Either that, or a significant variation in peak force or duration, which again isn't supported by the sim here.

If we were to try and overcome this intrinsic inefficiency of cranks, we'd be trying to achieve the maximum force available for a larger angular displacement - preferably the whole cycle. So for example, at the zero degrees position, where torque is minimal, we might try to arrange a right-angled lever to rotate the initial force around, 90° orthogonally and into the 'easy' plane of the crank. But, even if we could do this for every angle around the cycle, we'd only succeed in harnessing all of the input force, ie. we'd have eliminated the inherent losses in the mechanism, but we'd still only get 100% of any input energy back out.

A perfectly efficient crank would effectively be functionally identical to a spool and pulley system, as far as converting linear to rotary work is concerned.

I'm not sure this speaks directly to your ideas, i've read your descriptions carefully and studied your diagrams.. It might be more helpful if you could try the sim yourself, if you could find somewhere to download it, cough, sputter.. ;) ;)
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Re: re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by MrVibrating »

Oystein wrote:What bothers me is that it is not possible to understand the reason for building those two machines. An enormous 30kw generator filling a whole building is not useful at all. They even claim that it is not enough power to become a powerplant etc. Then the machine can only be used for demonstration purposes.

At the same time they write that they have a smaller working model!

Why build a larger model of the smaller working model, when it still can`t be used for anything practical, just filling up buildings? The smaller model would be much more handy, as the extra kw is not actually going to be used.

Why are the first machine not finished and shown working? They certainly have the people, material and resources available. It was planned to be finished autumn 2013.

Nothing seems reasonable to me. If they have a working concept, then the approach is still very strange.

Anyway, this is not Bessler principle, and time will tell if Bessler was right when he said that his principle was the ONLY way.
I'm guessing it's The Producers principle, trying to gain from an intended failure. Or some variation on the Mylow principle - perhaps he's faking it or even genuinely deluding himself, and desperate for the limelight that fuels the psychosis..


As i said though, i find it improbable that he could believe the claims himself - ie. re. the 200% force increase from switching the connecting locks. He states in the application that he's successfully tested this principle, and that the current two builds are based upon this positive result.


He can't NOT have performed the measurement - he must've measured it, just as he said he did. But the result here speaks for itself; he got the same negative result, yet for some reason is lying about it. Anyone falling for the lie obviously hasn't performed the measurement themselves.

Maybe he built a motorised model with a concealed driver. Who knows. Maybe he's a highly manipulative psychopath, or just has rich, gullible friends and family.

I can only guess...
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Post by MrVibrating »

So, yeah, cranks, speaking of which, from one to another....

I've been trying to keep an eye out for non-dissipative losses.

A non-dissipative loss is the corollary to a thermodynamic gain. In other words, such losses are "under-unity" results - and the asymmetry responsible may, in principle, be fully reversible.

To give an impression of what a non-dissipative loss looks like, let's first consider various dissipative losses, using gravity x mass x height systems:

- we could drop 1 kg 1 meter, but only harness half the drop height, leaving the other half of the fall distance unharvested.

- similarly, we might use a slippy clutch to only draw part of the force available, while still tapping the full drop height.

- or we might use some combination of each loss mechanism.


You get the picture. In these examples, we've simply wasted energy by not harnessing it - the energy we leave out still happens, it still transpires, exists, gets converted etc.

If we performed these measurements in a calorimeter, we'd find that any such energy that we don't pull out of the system in terms of mechanical output, is left behind in the form of heat; so the mass slams into the floor of the chamber, exciting a bunch of molecules, and this heat energy can be added to the mechanical energy we've subtracted, to give us the net total input energy. Anything that hasn't been converted to mechanical energy, gets converted to heat instead.

Basically, we're talking about entropic losses.

A non-dissipative loss is different - it's effectively a non-entropic loss. The missing energy has not been converted to waste heat - rather, it represents energy that never materialised in the first place. It is energy that never came to exist, or else, has been destroyed, at least from within the classical reference frame.

So as you can see, a non-dissipative loss is an asymmetric interaction, in precisely the same means and manner as a gainful interaction - it's fundamentally the same class of asymmetry, with the direction reversed.

Another example of such a loss, then, would be Bessler's one-directional wheels, forced to rotate backwards. Presumably, it is safe to assume this would've destroyed an equal amount of classical energy as generated in the opposite direction.

Granted this might not have seemed a particularly useful property to Bessler (though it actually has very useful applications, as a means of dumping unwanted energy without generating a load of heat, say, in an F1 braking system, perhaps). But it's a potentially game-changing waypoint in the search for the inverse interaction; if you can work out how to destroy energy, you're only one more imaginative leap from creating it...


And up until now, i've been unable to think of any such mechanism.

So you can guess what i'm about to suggest - is a crank system a non-dissipative loss mechanism? For a constant linear applied force, the torque on a crank passes through the zero line twice per cycle, hence the resultant energy lost has gone to a reduced output force, for a given input force.

Going back to the examples i suggested to Red_Sunset; if we drop a weight and capture the KE with a pulley and spool, the spool always winds on at 90° so retains perfect efficiency throughout the drop.

If we replace the spool with a crank though, the sinusoidal force variation eats up much of our input energy - for 1J in we might only get .7J back out on the crank... has the missing 300mj been converted to waste heat, or am i right in thinking this may be a non-dissipative loss..?

If so, we might have the nuts and bolts of a gain mechanism here...
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by Furcurequs »

I used some digital "White Out" to try to tease out a single mechanism from that latest mess of a drawing.

Here it is, for what it's worth:

Image

I hope I didn't erase anything I shouldn't have. Feel free to check it for errors.

Here's the original:
Image

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Post by Grimer »

Well done, Furcurequs.

Incidentally, I've been unable to raise the RAR website for quite a few days now.
Is it just me or are they offline for some reason.
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Post by Furcurequs »

Hey Grimer,

Thanks.

The RAR website has worked for me the few times I've checked it recently, and it seems to be okay for me at the moment, too.

Must be you. ;)

Take care.

Dwayne

ETA: Here is the drawing of the previous iteration for reference:

Image
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by Furcurequs »

I decided I would use "black out" on this one. I also flipped the image so it would have the same orientation as the others.

Image

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Post by Grimer »

It seems to me the thing one should concentrate on is the movement of the centre
of curvature of the weights. If this curvature is different for the weights rising
than it is for the weights descending then the weights are describing closed paths
which enclose areas.

This means the weights are generating angular momentum (3rd derivative energy).

Because angular momentum must be conserved this angular momentum (clockwise, say)
has to appear somewhere else in the system as counter-clockwise angular momentum.
Presumably it is small increments of this balancing angular momentum which are
driving the long shaft
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by MrVibrating »

@Furcurequs - Well done mate, i did the same thing with the first colour pics off PESwiki... these latest additions are just baffling though - Bessler's adage about adding ever more complexity comes to mind - "it'd run longer if it were empty!"...

It's clear to me now what he's trying to do, and unfortunately if he's genuine then he's suffering a pathological inability to understand why the damned thing won't work. More likely imo this increasingly Heath Robinson-esque monstrosity is meant to baffle and beguile...

Again though, these latest additions to the core mechanism follow the same hypothesis detailed in the patent app. - trying to add the downforce on the fulcrum as the weight arm lifts upwards to the gravity vector every half cycle.

IF he's genuine then the cure for his malaise is the realisation that any additional work done this way is exactly cancelled by the lift energy required to generate the downwards counterforce - his "force other than gravity" he claims to have proven the existence of (these are his own words from the patent app.)



For a final last, desperate chance at success, this evening i completed a sim of the 4-stroke cycle he details in the application - basically four mechanisms on the same axle, with 45° intervals spanning 180°.

Its behaviour is identical to that of a single mechanism - the crank never exceeds ~350°, then oscillates down losing energy all the time.

So in for a penny, in for a pound... i linked 8 x 45° increments, for a full 360°.

And you guessed it; it's static. The tolerances settle, but it just sits there... The patent app. claims these configs are PM and must be locked in place to hold them still...

Note that this isn't an interpretation of the claimant's intention - it's a step-by-step exact replication of the explicit instructions, examining the core mechanism of the central principle being claimed.



8-way model attached, trim any four mechanisms for the 4-way version...
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by Red_Sunset »

MrVibrating,

Your findings are very disappointing to the expectations that the Ribeiro invention created. I haven't run all the way through the process as yet due to other commitments, but it isn't promising.
What appears on first sight can be very deceptive and misleading especially when you get later on to the details. The meat is always in the fine details, but the odds are for sure stacked towards a negative outcome rather than a positive.

Looking at the wider picture, what is surprising is the background,

A reputable designer, an established design company, many patents in diverse technologies, multiple patent applications (4) for this concept, 2 builds on different continents).
What is also interesting to note is that Renato Ribeiro dabbled also in an other gravity energy concept, using buoyancy with patent awarded in 2011 (see below the list of patent applications in the last 6 yrs and below the actual patents awarded to-date.)

To produce a hypothetical concept patent what has never been build because it is difficult to do is one thing, but to proceed with 2 demo installations is an other. A large exposure to a "mis-represented patent application" and multiple variations at that, I would think is not very complementary to an established design company, or the potential benefit must outweigh the associated fraudulent reputation it would create.
Also if we assume a fraudulent case, why would he advertise a machine (on the web) before he can show a working machine. What he is showing is no ordinary thing, it upsets the balance of everything we know. This is a good recipe to create plenty of skepticism and negative "cannot work" publicity. None of it could possibly help his objective in this case. Waiting would overcome this problem or he must be very confident to be able to make all skeptics loose face.

If we assume a "delusion", I think that would be improbable except if it is premeditated for a gain unknown to us. I am still not so convinced on that path of logic.(maybe because I am not well enough informed). In the end, the "money flow" picture would give us the best reality picture if this would be the case.

Notwithstanding, as you said, nothing is lost, even our perceptions obey the conservation laws, it is inspirational and educational to retrace someone's thought pattern towards a puzzles we have also been unsuccessfully dabbling with.
Remember, the reason that we are dabbling in this area is believe/conviction, "That because it hasn't been found yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exists." We just don't know yet where to look.

Red_Sunset

USA Patent applications in the last 6 years for Renato Ribeiro

PUB. APP. NO. Title
1 20130284540 MECHANICAL MOTION SYSTEM FOR ENERGY GENERATION
2 20130270039 MECHANICAL MOTION SYSTEM FOR ENERGY GENERATION
3 20130264148 MECHANICAL MOTION SYSTEM FOR ENERGY GENERATION
4 20130256067 MECHANICAL MOTION SYSTEM FOR ENERGY GENERATION
5 20130256066 MECHANICAL MOTION SYSTEM FOR ENERGY GENERATION
6 20120006191 AIR OR GAS COMPRESSION SYSTEM
7 20110209569 POWER MULTIPLIER LEVER SYSTEM
8 20110198858 APPARATUS FOR ENERGY PRODUCTION
9 20110107288 Methods of deriving switch networks
10 20110107287 Methods of deriving switch networks
11 20090218898 MULTI FUNCTION ENGINES
12 20090090104 APPARATUS AND ASSOCIATED METHODS TO GENERATE USEABLE ENERGY
13 20090064961 RECIPROCATING PISTON CYLINDER HEAD COVER HAVING AN INTEGRATED FLUID EXCHANGE ROTARY DISC VALVE
14 20080264052 APPARATUS AND ASSOCIATED METHODS TO GENERATE USEABLE ENERGY
15 20070214439 Methods of deriving switch networks


Patents registered for Renato Ribeiro

PAT. NO. Title
1 8,100,103 Full-Text Reciprocating piston cylinder head cover having an integrated fluid exchange rotary disc valve
2 8,042,334 Full-Text Vertical fluid container with endless chain
3 7,958,726 Full-Text Apparatus and associated methods to generate useable energy
4 7,877,711 Full-Text Methods of deriving switch networks
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by Unbalanced »

Several new photos posted to http://www.rarenergia.com.br/ showing the drive shaft and bearings added to the Illinois build. It appears they may be using a different crank design in this iteration as the originals were part and parcel to the shaft segments.

One interesting aspect of this design as shown in the computer aided illustration, is the weighted arms slide in and out as they articulate like a titter-totter with a sliding seat
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by Red_Sunset »

Several new photos posted to http://www.rarenergia.com.br/ showing the drive shaft and bearings added to the Illinois build. It appears they may be using a different crank design in this iteration as the originals were part and parcel to the shaft segments.
Unbalance,
I do not see anything different. What you are possibly referring to is an optical illusion in the first crank slot due to the close-in positioning of the 1ste & 2de shaft in the slot circled in red on the picture, all others circled in white appear as expected.
If different, can you post here, the view/picture you are referring to.
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by mickegg »

HI MrV..

Good work!

A couple of things are bothering me that may have an impact on your conclusion

1) The argument that WM2D cannot show a gain in energy due to the algorithm used for the program....maybe why the output is way off what you expected to see?

2) The cranks do not appear to be at 45 degrees to me.... although shown as such in the coloured digital image; the photos of the build appear to show no two arms timed thus.


I may be wrong about both of these points.
However concerning WM2D, IIRC I can remember finding a help forum somewhere on which a member of the program team stated that as a fact.

I've been searching for it again, but it was not long after I joined the BW forum and most of the links I can now find appear to have been trashed by the spammers.

I shall keep searching. I can't remember if I posted of it at the time.

Regards

Mick
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by Andyb »

Hi merry Christmas everyone ,i was just thinking if those lower cradle shapes were holding rolling weights then the difference in weight effect could be created making it lighter on one side than the other is that not we are looking for ,just a thought, all the best
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re: Another claim to a working device...

Post by AB Hammer »

There are some differences of what is used and it just looked like the last bar was just pushed in. Most likely for alinement purposes.
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