Prime Mover
Moderator: scott
Prime Mover
The phrase "Prime Mover" literally means first mover. It means the first action or motion in a chain of events. In reality there is no such thing as a 'Prime Mover' because all movement is derived from some previous movement or force. Thus the chain of events links backward to the beginning of time. But in normal conversation 'Prime Mover' means the first event or first motion within a system or situation being observed.
I made a comment that many forum members use the term 'prime mover' to indicate a first or primary mechanisms (such as a falling weight) which then moves a second weight OOB (raise the second weight).
Later I made another statement concerning MT 15 where I said, "Whatever the mechanical arrangement might be that produces a prime mover force, it is not the OOB weights as shown in MT 15." eccentrically1 truncated this statement and thus changed the meaning. A force by itself does nothing. A force must act upon physical material. And a PM wheel by definition must produce more force than it begins with. Gravity force is conservative. There must be some 'prime mover' to lift weights upward so as to produce OOB of weights. And since weights cannot fly upward by themselves, there must be a mechanical mechanism that lifts the weights upward. Thus the mechanical mechanism brings into existence the 'Prime Mover' force to lift the weights so that they may fall and rotate MT 15. But there is no 'Prime Mover' mechanical mechanism shown in MT 15. Only OOB weights are shown, with no means or method to lift them OOB.
And thus my statement that, "Whatever the mechanical arrangement might be that produces a prime mover force, it is not the OOB weights as shown in MT 15."
The discussion revolved around why MT 15 might show OOB weights but then Bessler said that it showed no 'Prime Mover'. The answer is that gravity (OOB weights) is NOT the 'Prime Mover' of Bessler's PM wheels.
I keep pointing this out and everyone covers their eyes saying, "No, no, no." Open your eyes and read Bessler's words for what they actually say, and not from a pre-conception that Bessler's wheel was rotated by some magical arrangement that uses gravity acting on a lighter weight to lift heavier weights upward against equal gravity. And don't assume the alternative that Bessler was a fraud, for there exists much evidence indicating no fraud.
MT 15 is a very good example of OOB weights, but it is missing a Prime Mover mechanism that lifts the weight OOB. If gravity was the Prime Mover, then Bessler would not have made the statement that he wrote on MT 15. If gravity was the Prime Mover force then MT 15 is showing it.
I made a comment that many forum members use the term 'prime mover' to indicate a first or primary mechanisms (such as a falling weight) which then moves a second weight OOB (raise the second weight).
Later I made another statement concerning MT 15 where I said, "Whatever the mechanical arrangement might be that produces a prime mover force, it is not the OOB weights as shown in MT 15." eccentrically1 truncated this statement and thus changed the meaning. A force by itself does nothing. A force must act upon physical material. And a PM wheel by definition must produce more force than it begins with. Gravity force is conservative. There must be some 'prime mover' to lift weights upward so as to produce OOB of weights. And since weights cannot fly upward by themselves, there must be a mechanical mechanism that lifts the weights upward. Thus the mechanical mechanism brings into existence the 'Prime Mover' force to lift the weights so that they may fall and rotate MT 15. But there is no 'Prime Mover' mechanical mechanism shown in MT 15. Only OOB weights are shown, with no means or method to lift them OOB.
And thus my statement that, "Whatever the mechanical arrangement might be that produces a prime mover force, it is not the OOB weights as shown in MT 15."
The discussion revolved around why MT 15 might show OOB weights but then Bessler said that it showed no 'Prime Mover'. The answer is that gravity (OOB weights) is NOT the 'Prime Mover' of Bessler's PM wheels.
I keep pointing this out and everyone covers their eyes saying, "No, no, no." Open your eyes and read Bessler's words for what they actually say, and not from a pre-conception that Bessler's wheel was rotated by some magical arrangement that uses gravity acting on a lighter weight to lift heavier weights upward against equal gravity. And don't assume the alternative that Bessler was a fraud, for there exists much evidence indicating no fraud.
MT 15 is a very good example of OOB weights, but it is missing a Prime Mover mechanism that lifts the weight OOB. If gravity was the Prime Mover, then Bessler would not have made the statement that he wrote on MT 15. If gravity was the Prime Mover force then MT 15 is showing it.
re: Prime Mover
Prime Mover - Something that makes the first movement that re-primes the action or system you need to have a decisive movement and gain. (runner) is what it means to myself and others I believe.
For MT15 a step left out.
For MT15 a step left out.
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"
So With out a dream, there is no vision.
Old and future wheel videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos
Alan
So With out a dream, there is no vision.
Old and future wheel videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos
Alan
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re: Prime Mover
Hi jim_mich ,
I understand the prime mover as the more favourite force , it should have more force than say "the oob force " . If this favourite force is stronger than the force we want to use to turn a wheel , whether it be springs or mass in a gravity field , we need to use less energy to create the prime mover as the amount of energy the prime mover can supply .
I understand the prime mover as the more favourite force , it should have more force than say "the oob force " . If this favourite force is stronger than the force we want to use to turn a wheel , whether it be springs or mass in a gravity field , we need to use less energy to create the prime mover as the amount of energy the prime mover can supply .
re: Prime Mover
Philosophy and theology-The prime mover, primum movens, an unmoved mover in the philosophy of Aristotle, later used by Thomas Aquinas in his cosmological arguments, as a "first cause" of existence.
Prime mover may refer to: A machine that transforms energy from/to thermal, electrical or pressure to/from mechanical form, typically an engine or turbine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover
Prime mover may refer to: A machine that transforms energy from/to thermal, electrical or pressure to/from mechanical form, typically an engine or turbine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover
What goes around, comes around.
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re: Prime Mover
Can a spring be a prime mover?
re: Prime Mover
The prime mover could be as simple as putting energy into a system with your hand.
What goes around, comes around.
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re: Prime Mover
Although perhaps not the most accurate, I've always thought of a prime mover as a manmade energy source. Hoover Dam is a prime mover, where the energy source is the sun.
Make up reality
re: Prime Mover
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_mover_(locomotive)
A prime mover is the engine that drives a load. A train consists of an engine (prime mover) and carriages (load). To continue with this analogy, Bessler's MT only shows lots of different carriage designs but no engines. Furthermore, Bessler never mentions a fuel type as this would reveal his prime mover.wikipedia wrote:In engineering, a prime mover is an engine that converts fuel to useful work.
re: Prime Mover
The only problem with that prime mover is engines and trains and hadn’t been invented yet, so from an engineering stand point Bessler would have been at ground zero... not impossible I guess.
What goes around, comes around.
- Jim Williams
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re: Prime Mover
Merriam Webster definition of:
PRIME MOVER
1
a : an initial source of motive power (as a windmill, waterwheel, turbine, or internal combustion engine) designed to receive and modify force and motion as supplied by some natural source and apply them to drive machinery
b : a powerful tractor or truck usually with all-wheel drive
2
: the self-moved being that is the source of all motion
3
: the original or most effective force in an undertaking or work <education is … a prime mover of cultural and societal change — R. C. Buck>
PRIME MOVER
1
a : an initial source of motive power (as a windmill, waterwheel, turbine, or internal combustion engine) designed to receive and modify force and motion as supplied by some natural source and apply them to drive machinery
b : a powerful tractor or truck usually with all-wheel drive
2
: the self-moved being that is the source of all motion
3
: the original or most effective force in an undertaking or work <education is … a prime mover of cultural and societal change — R. C. Buck>
Make up reality
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re: Prime Mover
jim wrote:But in normal conversation 'Prime Mover' means the first event or first motion within a system or situation being observed.
does anyone else see the contradiction here?jim wrote:Later I made another statement concerning MT 15 where I said, "Whatever the mechanical arrangement might be that produces a prime mover force, it is not the OOB weights as shown in MT 15."
either there is a prime mover ( the first event or first motion of the system being observed before the mechanical arrangement produces force, which then moves the mechanical arrangement, or, the "mechanical arrangement" produces a prime mover. this makes no sense! which is it, the chicken or the egg?
jim's design revolves around the idea that mass, once set in circular motion, can be mechanically manipulated into producing, or creating, more motion ( or energy), the "prime mover", that lifts the weights out of balance. the problem with that idea is, the only mechanisms at anyone's disposal in circular motion are .. surprise!.. levers!
from "simple machine":
wiki wrote: "The identification of simple machines arises from a desire for a systematic method to invent new machines. Therefore, an important concern is how simple machines are combined to make more complex machines. One approach is to attach simple machines in series to obtain compound machines.
However, a more successful strategy was identified by Franz Reuleaux, who collected and studied over 800 elementary machines. He realized that a lever, pulley, and wheel and axle are in essence the same device: a body rotating about a hinge. Similarly, an inclined plane, wedge, and screw are a block sliding on a flat surface."[21]
your humble eccentrically1 troll, occassionally visited by suspicionThe complete dynamic theory of simple machines was worked out by Italian scientist Galileo Galilei in 1600 in Le Meccaniche ("On Mechanics").[16][17] He was the first to understand that simple machines do not create energy, only transform it.[16]
EC1, you are a Johnny come lately. Your concept of 'surprise!' has been discussed extensively previously on the forum by myself and others. It is nothing new. We 'old timers' are very well aware of such a concept that all devices reduce to either a body rotating about a hinge or an inclined plane. You keep making these stupid assumptions that we are ignorant of these facts. Some of the newbies might be unaware of such things, but I assure you that forum members that have been here since near the inception of the Bessler Wheel forum are very aware of such things. We are not the ignorant boobs that you keep assuming.
See this link from about nine years ago.
As far as a lever being the only mechanism, such a statement is only partly true. It depend upon your concept of a lever. A lever would be any means whereby motion of one mass causes motion of a second mass. And this fits Bessler's description whereby as one weight moves outward another weight moves inward. Then they swap. This of course requires a leveraging mechanisms of some sort.
But you mention the 'prime mover' lifting weights out of balance. Why do you insist upon lifting weights? You involve gravity when you insist upon lifting of weights. I keep explaining that gravity is not a factor. But then you seem to forget and soon you write about my design 'lifting weights'. There is no lifting of weights in my design. Yes weight go round and round and thus some weight rises as other weight falls. But the wheel is balanced and thus the rising negates the falling. So you can forget about the rising and falling of weights. It's as if there is just a single wheel mass.
Bessler's last two wheels were balanced when stationary and they were balanced when rotated slowly. Only when rotated a little faster so that weights were heard to begin moving within the wheel would the weights then 'gain force' from their motions and provide force to rotate the wheel.
Obviously this increased force must come from some source. And I've explained the source of the extra energy on a number of occasions. Maybe you missed those posts? Maybe you didn't understand? The extra energy comes by way of 'usable energy'. I know this concept is foreign to most people. James Clerk Maxwell wrote about such a concept way back in 1867. Except that his version involved the motions of individual molecules. His concept was that the gas molecules are all in motion and thus they contained kinetic energy. But their average banging against the walls of a vessel produced an average gas pressure. Maxwell conceived of an entity that became known a Maxwell's Demon, which entity sorted the gas molecules according to their speed, and thus the molecules were sorted into two groups, one containing warmer faster moving molecules, and another group containing colder slower moving molecules. The total heat of the two groups isn't changed by the sorting. But the usable energy is increased because any simple heat engine could then use the temperature difference to produce mechanical motion, and thus output energy perpetually, as long as the friction heat of the work done is recycled back to the colder gas.
Now my PM wheel works upon a similar principle except that it is weight motion that is sorted and transferred quite naturally from slower less energetic weights to faster more energetic weights. This is like having heat transfer spontaneously from a cold object to a warm object. Such a transferring of heat energy is against thermodynamic laws. But the transferring of mechanical motion from slower objects to faster objects does not go against thermodynamic laws. This is because it is not a transfer of heat. Such a transferring of motion is very rare and not common. It requires a rotating environment. But believe me, it is not an impossible task, such as trying to get heat to move from cold to warmer objects.
My fluid wheel version eliminates any levers. Fluid pushes fluid. Thus the motion of one portion of fluid moves another portion of fluid. So this arrangement does act like a very simple leveraging machine.
So you, eccentrically1, keep trolling. Keep assuming that the forum members here are idiots. But many of us have already been where you're just now starting to tread.
Yes, the concept of motion causing more motion is unusual and hard to understand. But a working perpetual motion must involve some principle that is unusual and not common, else if it were just the common rising and falling of leveraged weights, it would have already have been found long ago.
Just my opinions.
See this link from about nine years ago.
As far as a lever being the only mechanism, such a statement is only partly true. It depend upon your concept of a lever. A lever would be any means whereby motion of one mass causes motion of a second mass. And this fits Bessler's description whereby as one weight moves outward another weight moves inward. Then they swap. This of course requires a leveraging mechanisms of some sort.
But you mention the 'prime mover' lifting weights out of balance. Why do you insist upon lifting weights? You involve gravity when you insist upon lifting of weights. I keep explaining that gravity is not a factor. But then you seem to forget and soon you write about my design 'lifting weights'. There is no lifting of weights in my design. Yes weight go round and round and thus some weight rises as other weight falls. But the wheel is balanced and thus the rising negates the falling. So you can forget about the rising and falling of weights. It's as if there is just a single wheel mass.
Bessler's last two wheels were balanced when stationary and they were balanced when rotated slowly. Only when rotated a little faster so that weights were heard to begin moving within the wheel would the weights then 'gain force' from their motions and provide force to rotate the wheel.
Obviously this increased force must come from some source. And I've explained the source of the extra energy on a number of occasions. Maybe you missed those posts? Maybe you didn't understand? The extra energy comes by way of 'usable energy'. I know this concept is foreign to most people. James Clerk Maxwell wrote about such a concept way back in 1867. Except that his version involved the motions of individual molecules. His concept was that the gas molecules are all in motion and thus they contained kinetic energy. But their average banging against the walls of a vessel produced an average gas pressure. Maxwell conceived of an entity that became known a Maxwell's Demon, which entity sorted the gas molecules according to their speed, and thus the molecules were sorted into two groups, one containing warmer faster moving molecules, and another group containing colder slower moving molecules. The total heat of the two groups isn't changed by the sorting. But the usable energy is increased because any simple heat engine could then use the temperature difference to produce mechanical motion, and thus output energy perpetually, as long as the friction heat of the work done is recycled back to the colder gas.
Now my PM wheel works upon a similar principle except that it is weight motion that is sorted and transferred quite naturally from slower less energetic weights to faster more energetic weights. This is like having heat transfer spontaneously from a cold object to a warm object. Such a transferring of heat energy is against thermodynamic laws. But the transferring of mechanical motion from slower objects to faster objects does not go against thermodynamic laws. This is because it is not a transfer of heat. Such a transferring of motion is very rare and not common. It requires a rotating environment. But believe me, it is not an impossible task, such as trying to get heat to move from cold to warmer objects.
My fluid wheel version eliminates any levers. Fluid pushes fluid. Thus the motion of one portion of fluid moves another portion of fluid. So this arrangement does act like a very simple leveraging machine.
So you, eccentrically1, keep trolling. Keep assuming that the forum members here are idiots. But many of us have already been where you're just now starting to tread.
Yes, the concept of motion causing more motion is unusual and hard to understand. But a working perpetual motion must involve some principle that is unusual and not common, else if it were just the common rising and falling of leveraged weights, it would have already have been found long ago.
Just my opinions.
re: Prime Mover
Hello Jim,
Good post, you write above. I especially like the last paragraph. I would add, Bessler stated: "I found the answer where everyone had looked."
I follow and believe in your fluid drive concept. But must admit that our two designs are very far from being similar. I like to believe that I have found what others have overlooked, and there are many patents proving my point once exposed.
Ralph
Good post, you write above. I especially like the last paragraph. I would add, Bessler stated: "I found the answer where everyone had looked."
I follow and believe in your fluid drive concept. But must admit that our two designs are very far from being similar. I like to believe that I have found what others have overlooked, and there are many patents proving my point once exposed.
Ralph
re: Prime Mover
Jim, in your proposed fluid wheel what component is the prime mover? Isn't water the load?