Any Buzzsaw Wheel Models for sale?

[justsomeone]

Ralph, did you forget about eyewitness statements about a circular ring with some sort of levers and springs attached?

[rlortie]

JSO,

Sorry but I do not have any recollection or knowledge of anyone stating there was a circular ring or anything attached.

Shortly after making contact with Ron Keno, He invited me to join him and family members that were aware of the wheel. I could not afford the expense of traveling to New York.

All living relatives met for breakfast and to compile what they could remember about the wheel. Ron took notes and forwarded them to me. Family members remember the machine leaning against the back wall of a car garage sized out building. It was there when WWII started with Albert's sister's model "A" parked in front of it.

Some of the elders gave conflicting reports of seeing the wheel run. One stated he thought the wheels counter rotated, another said that it did not. No one recalled seeing the drive shaft sticking out from the side of a building used for sawing firewood as reported by Doc.

In all you will have to read between the lines of what Doc posted , I feel that he let his imagination run a muck in his attempts to keep the researchers incited.

in closing this post, I stand my ground by stating mathematically you cannot lift a weight twice as fast as what is falling with only a 1" gain in leverage.

Doc was very explicit in stating that the distance between gullets varied with a + or - up to 3/16". I wrote this off as foundry error and possible different rates of cooling after pour. I consider this tolerance stack as negligible. How ever the chains and sprockets would have to be dead on. other wise after a few turns you would loose the required timing ratio and the machine would soon be out sync.

There is one item that has always left me in a quandary; the nubbins were longer on one side of the weights than the other. Doc stated that this was to allow the short side to clear the outer spokes. The spokes are extend by mounting on a backer plate. making the shorter nubs unnecessary. Only you have the privilege to verify this.

I do not know how long the old Ford sat there, but the wheel remained ignored through four decades until the estate auction after Albert passed away. During the auction no attempt was made to auction of the wheel as a separate item. No family heirs were interested in it, to them it was just a piece of junk iron. The estate buyer finally moved the wheel out and leaned it up against an apple tree where it sat rusting until Doc got a hold of it.

As I understand it, you have all that was/is left of it, any other sprockets, chains and jack-shaft were sold for scrap iron, The wheel would have been gone if not for the exception that it was to heavy for the scrap dealer to man handle into his pickup.

As you track the original thread dealing with Docs desire to keep members interested you will find numerous inputs of "Oh now I remember" adding a little more spice to the to the story. Doc was a good story teller with a vivid imagination when called for.

I believe that Preston in a positive approach took to much stock in Doc's imagination, writing it as fact!

Ron made it clear that until the day Albert died, experiencing senility. he was still playing with tin cans and what ever, attempting to build a functioning wheel.

As for old German written book and papers that he kept at his bedside, That Doc had the privilege of holding in his hands went to the son in-law of his sister. Where it got displace while stored in a garage. He admitted acquiring the book and having it in his possession, but he or his wife could not find it. I would not be surprised it it did not end up on the auction table at Sotheby's.

The now celebrated Keno twins remember the book and related papers that Grandpa always kept by his beside. The name or published date was never verified as the heir appear-ants, could not read German and were not interested in Albert's steadfast search for a working model.

Ron's own words were: "It was more important to head for the ole
swimming hole when visiting grandpa".

We are now entering the seventh year of cussing and discussing this machine. This will be my last voluntary input, unless I am personally called upon.

Ralph

[Unbalanced]

To JSO

Ralph wrote:

Doc was very explicit in stating that the distance between gullets varied with a + or - up to 3/16". I wrote this off as foundry error and possible different rates of cooling after pour. I consider this tolerance stack as negligible.

This is an observation that I think you should research further. Take nothing for granted.

With a close observation, ask yourself, what gullets precisely line up at any given time.

If you allow that this discrepancy just may have been intentional, then you reduce the number of possible weight transfer probabilities a great deal.

I've brought this up before here but was dismissed outright twice.

I would be very keen to learn just which or how many gullets line up exactly at any given time and hope you will report back.

On a side note, thanks for inquiring into my wife's health. She is considered a walking miracle. 99% of those given her diagnosis die within 18-months. She has been declared cancer free and goes skiing or snowboarding five days a week.

[veproject1]

Hi, never heard about this machine. Is the drawings available?
Thanks,
Val

I saw an excellent Buzzsaw Wheel model by Mickegg, which referenced this forum. It appears to be about 1 foot in diameter, and hopefully made of aluminum for light weight mailing.

Does ANYONE have a well made WHEELS of the Buzzsaw Wheel that is for sale, and small enough and light enough to mail in the U.S?

2 inner wheels, and 2 outer wheels are all that is needed.
The weights and supports I can handle.
It is the exact cutting of the gullets that is beyond my skill.

Are there links to sites that sell Buzzsaw Wheel models?

Thank you in advance for anyone who responds.

[Unbalanced]

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory: ... vity_Wheel

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1164

[rlortie]

Unbalanced wrote:

I

f you allow that this discrepancy just may have been intentional, then you reduce the number of possible weight transfer probabilities a great deal.

The discrepancy IMO was not intentional. It is not enough to prevent the weights from transferring, it would only cause jamming. By simply rounding the gullet entry at the radius was more than enough to dismiss the minimum asymmetrical indexing encountered.

To reduce number of weight transfers, one would have to completely block the gullet with a smooth face, retaining the weight in the desired wheel. Any indentation what-so-ever would allow the weight to jam!

I would be very keen to learn just which or how many gullets line up exactly at any given time and hope you will report back.

The present owner (JSO) is the only source I am aware of that can provide this information.

As for my wife's condition; she has experienced loss of weight and is bound to either a walker for short distance and a wheel chair for extended distances. No farther Chemotherapy is considered. She is looked after and attended by a live-in caregiver.

Ralph

[Unbalanced]

To Vproject Val

I am excited that a model builder as skilled as you are, may be interested in taking up this Buzzsaw Wheel project.

Though there have been several very good models made to date, your attention to detail will no doubt bring a resurgence in interest to this particular concept.

I hope you will study all that is available be it speculation or fact, and produce a replica.

Note that the weights can not pass one another. There isn't enough room.

[justsomeone]

Quote from Ralph:

in closing this post, I stand my ground by stating mathematically you cannot lift a weight twice as fast as what is falling with only a 1" gain in leverage.


Ralph you keep talking about this 1 inch gain in leverage. I know what you are talking about but there is NO way the outer wheel was the driver! If it was then the weights transferring between the outer and inner wheels would always be uphill, correct?

[justsomeone]

Unbalanced, about the accuracy of the gullets, imagine if the weights always fell onto the outer wheel (at the bottom) and onto the inner wheel (at the top) just before it could fall into a slot. Whatever wheel it fell from could just push it for that split second until it falls. I am sure the gap between the inner and outer wheels is too small to cause it to jam. Yes there would be slightly more friction this way but it would negate any problems that slightly inaccurate gullets may cause.

[rlortie]

JSO,

the weights transferring between the outer and inner wheels would always be uphill, correct?

I do not believe your statement to be totally correct!

I guess that would depend upon which way you rotate it. I never experienced any uphill exchange no matter which side I viewed the wheel from. top or bottom the weights always shift from a downward slanting gullet into an upward slanting gullet. be it clockwise or counter clockwise.

What little asymmetric variance between gullets can be negated by rounding the radius at gullet entry.

I see no difference in whether the inner or outer is assumed to be the driver. The gullets are shaped to only exchange weights when they fall from one negative incline to a matching positive incline. Normally around 10:30 and 4;30 or 2;30 and 7:30 depending on which side you consider the front or back, regardless of which is the driver and which is the driven.

Either way there is only 1" and a few thousands in mass transference. This measurement is dependent on how big of gap you have between wheels, excessive gap and it will jam.

The design calls for very tight tolerance, the gearing must be precise to allow for the minute time it takes for the weight to exchange gullets.

Doc always wondered why Albert used wore out used chain, I believe it was because he found "tolerance stack" to be a major problem. If all gullets do not mate with each revolution then you got problems. Even if of by .10,000", this will add up in a hurry within a few revolutions. That is to say that the sprockets used must be precise keeping the set ratio constant.

As stated by David Jenkins, all the weights will end up at the bottom. This I can relate to!

Ralph

[Tarsier79]

Justsomeone

I see your point,You are correct, if you do the transfer around 12 and 6. Logic says that you can transfer from the inner to the outside after 1:30 but before 7:30, (assuming correct orientation of the gullets). Adding guides to exchange after the device wants to, will give you additional combinations.

Mathematically speaking, I cannot see any plausible advantage to any weight/gearing combinations ensuring weight positional reset. It is funny to hear from members that the weights often end up at the bottom...... I imagine their initial explosion of excitement when seeing it accelerate under its own power, followed by gut wrenching dissapointment.

[rlortie]

Sorry Tarsier, but there was no "initial explosion of excitement when seeing it accelerate under its own power, followed by gut wrenching disappointment"... No excitement as I never found anything to get excited about. I learned long ago to remove the word"euphoria" from my vocabulary.

I never saw any acceleration other than that made by OB as the weights were inserted, I had to clamp the wheel while loading and then release. Best it would do is a quarter to half turn before jamming up.

No matter what deviation of weight placement or sprocket ratio's tried I never did achieve a full free running 360 degree cycle.

And I agree with the engineer that examined Doc's machine when he was stuck on believing that the inner wheel was the driver. He told him that he was attempting to make it run backwards, that the outer wheel should be the driver. This took place long before Doc ever joined this forum.

After Doc and I got better acquainted, he admitted to his wrong doing and finally agreed that the outer wheel was indeed the driver. The weights fall and there is no known need to force them upward by some unknown alleged missing device.

Think of the inner wheel being a machine or Gatling gun ammo clip, continuously supplying the outer wheel with ammo. You are limited to ratios as the weights cannot pass one another. There cannot by any "Hunting" ratio as found in an automobile differential.

[justsomeone]

Tell me Ralph where the weights shift using the outer wheel as the driver. If the outer wheel was the driver would it not be the wheel with 16 slots?

[justsomeone]

If the inner wheel was the driver, the shift would be much closer to the 6 and 12 o'clock positions.

[rlortie]

JSO,

If the outer had 16 slots then the inner would require 32...

A two to one (2:1) ratio, to get the weights back to the top twice as fast in order to fill each outer gullet. The inner only picks up on every other gullet, so you have less weights to lift, but twice as fast.

Sorry but I was lead to believe you already had all this figured out, plus a little more that you were not revealing.

If the outer wheel were to be the ammo clip turning twice as fast as the inner, it will not happen! You simply do not have the leverage.

Here is my theory partially derived after I gave up: You have twelve weights, eight are in every other inner gullet, the outer shifts weights to the inner via the empty gullets, every other weight is passed back to the outer with eight keeping the inner wheel balanced. Now if the inner wheel is always kept in balance it takes very little torque to keep it up to speed. It is also acting as a flywheel dampener providing you with built up kinetic energy.

Every other gullet with a weight stays in the inner as the gullet is passing the outer between gullets, It does not fall out until the gullets come in to alignment once each revolution.

It is very important that your chain sprockets are firmly attached, if one should slip the least iota your in big trouble!

This gives you a constant output torque with the value of four weights less friction loss. Try it, you might like it!

Ralph