two different magnetic pmms

[VergingOnDone]

Some interesting contraptions to consider:

magnets in a Hampster cage style wheel,
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/callomag.htm

and a two level magnetic fin arrangement / counter weighted rim,
Patent #5,594,289
by Kohei Minato
http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/curtis.htm

Although these use magnets which I believe could be concieveably be arranged in some fashion to create pmm, one of them uses gravity as well.. So far there seems to be these pockets of references for the "perpetual motion" inventions, including finstrud's sculpture, why is it taking so long for any of these to make it to and stay in the spotlight? Is it because of the stigma of "PMM" that make the idea scoffable? Anyway I thought this crowd might like to try to duplicate these, and also for motivation that there actually is an answer to bessler's wheel.

[Jonathan]

I have seen both of these before, I've always been interested but I didn't try the hampster one because he said it was sensitive and the other needs weird magnets. I have dabbled though and made a successful magnetic ramp, it is one shot, and the geometry disallows closing the loop, but I can prove there is more energy out than in using simple logic but it is small, about 100 mJ, so I have no way to prove it experimentally. As I'm not at home for a few days, I can't show you all the drawing I made of it, I don't have it here, but at one point I did send it to Mr. Rustad, maybe he still has it on his computer?
The concept is that one has a magnetic field on an incline that is strong enough to roll a stck of magnets up it. Then, at the height of it's velocity, the track stops, but the stator magnets continue on after.
So to get it to roll uphill the magnetic field must be stronger than g*sin(theta), where theta is the angle between the inclined plane and horizontal(it is more complex than that because the magnets roll, but you get the idea). But then the track disappears out from underneath the roller, so now the usual and complete acceleration of gravity g works against the magnetic field. The magnetic field is perpendicular to the path the roller follows, and the magnets making it get progressivly closer together, which is why the roller is attracked to the top. At no point in the operation do any of the magnets oppose each other.
It is really simple, you all can build if for a few bucks on magnets from RadioShack. You also need tape, cardboard (like from Coke box), and some aluminum sheeting from the home supply for low friction.
What just occurs to me, and might interest you all, is that this device works because of Bearden's asymetric regauging. The strength of gravitational acceleration depends on what obstacles, like the inclined plane, are in the way. But the magnetic acceleration (in this kind of form) doesn't. One can freely have the shape of the obstacles to gravity be like this such that on the uphill it is kinda g*sin(theta), while on the falling it is completely g. It works if g>m>g*sin(theta) (if g*sin(theta) were really accurate) and m is the acceleration toward the top from the increasing flux density.

[grim]

Why couldn't one have a plain steel ball roll up an incline toward a strong magnet, as in the old drawing where its supposed to drop down thru a hole, but instead of a hole have it trip an iron dropgate in between the ball and magnet, cutting off the flux. With no flux the ball would hit the dropgate and roll back down the incline, where it could roll over a latch release and the dropgate would raise, etc., and it would all start over again, a la Wesley Gary's oscillating magnetic motor?


grim

[Jonathan]

Well you answered your own question. The problem is that there is no material the sheilds magnetic fields well, and then one has the problem of pulling it away from the magnet, as it would undoubtably be attracked to it.
In my previous post I should have said that the device is based on and looks almost the same as Greg Watson's deivce. JLN did work on it too, but I wasn't able to replicate it exactly as he said, I had to use magnets for the roller. But I did get more free energy too. I can't give links or anything, I don't have my favorites list on this computer.
EDIT
I found that I had posted the link elsewhere on this site:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/smotidx.htm

[jim_mich]

The problem is that there is no material the sheilds magnetic fields well, and then one has the problem of pulling it away from the magnet, as it would undoubtably be attracked to it.

Jonathan, Mu metal is a special alloy that conducts magnetic fields VERY well which will act as a shield. It is used in many applications. I once had a chevy van with the speakers in the dash, one right behind the speedometer. My sons replaced the 'sheilded' speakers with more powerfull ones and totaly screwed up the magnetic action of the speedometer. I also helped designed a mu metal box to sheild a computer monitor from the magnetic field of its power transformer.

Also, if a shield is slid sideways parallel to the magnetic field, there is little force to overcome.

[Jonathan]

I bought some Mu metal cheap off of Ebay and though it does greatly decrease the strength of the field, the field still makes it through, and it is only little RadioShack magnets that I use. The other problem is as I said, that it is attracted to the magnet.
In the experiment mentioned by grim, the only easy way to move the shield would be sliding, that was what I was thinking of. One wants there to be very little energy necessary to move it, but it is quite a lot given how little energy one will get out.

[VergingOnDone]

Is this idea like JNL's page on SMOTs ? I can see how you can get drive from a ball bearing between the magnets, here's an adjustment however, if you combine 2 ramps to get extra height maybe even 3 you could slightly incline each ramp to benefit from the increase in speed, at the top of magnetic ramp 3 would be the "jump off" point where it would launch onto a large declining semi-circular track that would return the ball to the bottom of the first ramp? or a continuous coil of ramps on a slight continuous incline, that could end and have the ball jump to a windmill device to return it to the bottom?

[Jonathan]

You've misunderstood how it works, it is magnetogravitational. The magnets overcome gravity on one part, and then suddenly gravity is stronger than the magnets, so the energy is released. How well it works depends on the magnets used, and once you pick some magnets and get it to work, there is no configuation that would make it work better; certain magnets will work to some extent, and no matter what they will not work more, and that's if it works at all. It is really hard to explain why, but I have no doubt.
JLN has speculated several similar ideas at his site, I don't know why he hasn't tried them. I however can't, because I've never been able to get it to work with balls, only rolling magnets, and I've never been able to lift the magnets higher than their own height, so I can't combine several ramps. I have tried to just use one, but the energy out is just never enough to overcome the friction that occurs while it is rolling back to the beginning, let alone enough to be useful. I figure that if it won't be useful, then it is not worth the time, so I've been stalled at this point for a year or so.

[Georg Künstler]

Hamster cage is a solution of a ppm. Of course it isn't a ppm, it takes its energy from gravity. I studied the movements Oct/2002. Besslerwheel and Hamster cage are using the same equations.
The way to solve is: push off, repulsive. It can be done in an easier construction. Think of a 'Sägezahn' function.

[Trev]

Hi folks,
I researched magnetic motors for a few years and built several of them, never got any to work though:(My favourite was the Gary motor -
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810)

A few days ago I suddenly had an idea for a magnet / gravity wheel and since then I have been trying to think of why it wouldn't work but cant think of any reason why not!
Your thoughts please.
Trev.

Update - I seem to have the picture working in a new post bellow.

[Jonathan]

Trev, I couldn't see the picture, it wouldn't come up, is that happening to anyone else?
Georg, you drive me nuts with these claims. You have made it clear you know the answer, so tell us the secret so that we all can get back our sanity.

[jim_mich]

Jonathan, you can NOT click on the address! They don't allow external linking. So do as Trev said and copy the link. Then paste it into the address of your browser and click Go! It opens right up if it is the primary parent window and not a 'child' browser pop-up window.

Hope this helps.

I tried to build a couple magnet powered wheels. Each had a problem that I never got back to. I think one could work with a little more technical work. The other is a maybe. I have no way of showing either one as I'm away traveling now and will not be home for a few days. I also built a Gary motor. Again poorly built and did not work. But the concept I believe is workable. Each failure teaches me something. I continue to learn!! They all work on a concept that will be easier for me to explain from my home computer.

[Trev]

I'll try again....
Hi folks,
I researched magnetic motors for a few years and built several of them, never got any to work though:( My favourite was the Gary motor http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810 (you'd need to paste that in your browser address bar, as they dont allow direct linking)

A few days ago I suddenly had an idea for a magnet / gravity wheel and since then I have been trying to think of why it wouldn't work but cant think of any reason why not!
Your thoughts please.
Trev.

[Jonathan]

Hey now, that is pretty neat. As to the link, I had no problems with that, I don't know what you're talking about, I was able to click it directly, it is blue colored and everything.
EDIT
I've made a similar model today, the most striking difference is that it has four spokes, and it doesn't work. I really can't say why, it seems like it should, but I'm suspecting that it actually does take energy out of the wheel to turn relative to the large weights/magnets on the periphery. It is really hard to say at this point though, because as of yet the magnets that make the torque differential only move a millimeter or so from the usual positions they'd be in if they were nothing but weights on spokes, uneffected by the peripheral magnets.
I remember now that I came up with a device that is vaguely similar, with off-setting weights on the periphery and weights to be off-set toward the center, but it was entirly gravitational. I never got one to run correctly when spun by hand, let alone by itself, due to the complexities. Instead of having the magnets interact without contact, this device had an excentric wheel on an axle, and a weight was attached to the axle. So as the thing revolved, how far the excentric wheel intruded upon the space of those weights that get off-set would vary. For low speed versions one would want a spring to keep the off-set weights toward the periphery, but I figure centripetal acceleration can do that for me. Has anyone else tried something like this?

[magnet-man]

opossing magnets stay out of equilibrium so you can make motion of a wheel with such. just make several cases to keep the magnets around axle