What do you think about this idea?

[hassan]

Hi.My idea doesn't depend on whell but (I think) it can works.I want to hear your opinions about my idea.The system is similar to the system which Evangelista Torricelli made to measure the atmospheric pressure.I only put two taps.One of them to the bottom of the pipe.The other is to the middle of the pipe(the lenght of the pipe is 13 meters).We fill the pipe and close the taps.And we also fill the bowl.Then we put the pipe in the bowl as vertical.We first open the middle tap.Then the water flows until the water level comes 5 or 6 cm up the middle tap.Then we close the middle tap.And we open the bottom tap.The atmospheric pressure makes the water level as at the beginning.After these,we open the middle tap again and the curcuit goes on like this.What do you think?

[rks1878]

Hello Hassan,
I think we would need a very accomplished TAP dancer to go along with it.

[hassan]

Excuse me,I couldn't understand what you mean.Tap dancer?Would you say more clearly?

[rks1878]

Sure. It's a play on words. Your idea has a lot of tap opening and closing to do. Just thought a tap dancer would be the best person to go around doing that.

Robert

[rlortie]

Hasson,

OK, let me see if I have this right, stand a pipe on end with a "T" and valve in its center, install another closed valve at the bottom which is setting in a bowl of water. Now I am assuming that the top of pipe is capped which you do not define.

You open the middle valve and gravity with atmospheric pressure will let some water out creating a vacuum in the upper end of pipe. Now you close the middle valve and open the bottom. this allows the water to replace the spent water/ vacuum.

May I recommend moving your center valve to just above bowl level, this will give your more specific weight to create a higher vacuum. Remember, maximum lift of any such device is only good for 27 feet at sea level. This would include distance from bowl to middle valve.

The guy that thought this up must like to drink with a straw, same principle.

Ralph

[hassan]

Thanks so much for your writings but I think we couldn't reach a result of these.Sure Rlortie,we can make the system as you want.But does it work?

[hassan]

The system is like this.We open the middle valve.Does water flow down from the middle valve?If it flows down,until the water which is in the pipe level comes up 5 or 6 cm of the middle valve, we close the middle valve.Because the air mustn't enter the pipe.If it enters,when we close the middle valve and open the bottom valve,the water level in the pipe doesn't increase.If these actions happen well,we can say that it works.Then we can open and close valves automatically by the help of PLC systems(Of course these use the a part of energy which we get from the curcuit of the system).Thanks

[PIMAN]

This sounds like a ram pump. They do work, but are not OU.
http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm

PIMAN

[Jonathan]

If the weight of the water from the top to the middle value were enough to go out the middle valve against atmospheric pressure, then later in the cycle when the middle valve is closed and the bottom one is open, the water will have a little more weight than it did in the last case, and will also flow out to some extent though the bottom valve. If the middle valve is lower than the true middle, then under some circumstances water may go in later in the cycle. However it will not go in so much as to reach the original height.

[rlortie]

The system is like this.We open the middle valve.Does water flow down from the middle valve?If it flows down,until the water which is in the pipe level comes up 5 or 6 cm of the middle valve, we close the middle valve.Because the air mustn't enter the pipe.If it enters,when we close the middle valve and open the bottom valve,the water level in the pipe doesn't increase.If these actions happen well,we can say that it works.Then we can open and close valves automatically by the help of PLC systems(Of course these use the a part of energy which we get from the curcuit of the system).Thanks

Hassen,

When you open the middle valve a little water will come out, it is the same as a humming bird feeder, it will not drain unless you suck on it as a humming bird does.

What do you mean by the "pipe level comes up 5 or 6 cm"? the water in the pipe with the middle valve open will stop flowing as soon as allowable vacuum is reached. This means very little water is going to fall. In a 3" stand pipe 10 feet tall you will be lucky to get a drop of 2" Max and I even doubt that.

Do I think it will work, NO, as soon as you open the bottom valve the stand pipe level will only raise part of the way back up as water is heavier than air and you will always have a partial vacuum.

As I have previously stated, there is not a suction pump in the world that can raise water over 27 feet at sea level. This figure drops as you climb in altitude. Pumps do not pull, they simply relieve the atmospheric pressure causing the atmosphere to push the water up the pipe.

Any pump including the afore mentioned ram system can push water up extreme heights. Even Bessler shows this in his drawings with the "v'd" A pointing to source or total height.

Ralph

[hassan]

Rlortie
Your example which you used to explain problem is good.But I want to ask you something about it.Let's change the structure of humming bird feeder.We are closing the top of the part of the humming bird feeder which birds drink from and make a hole bottom of the part of the humming bird feeder which birds drink from.What do you think now?

Thanks

[rlortie]

hassen,

I think the same thing as the top of a hummingbird feeder is never open. You fill it upside down and then turn it over. The holes in the bottom are already open but nothing runs out as there is no way for air to enter. Same as your pipe dream,

[Jonathan]

Ralph was refering to this type of feeder. From a hydraulic view it is a J-shaped tube with a cap on the tall end.

[hassan]

Yes,I think you are right Ralph.It won't work as we want.Anyway it was just an idea.And that idea handled us to meet :)
Thanks

[rlortie]

Jonathan,

You are partly correct, the "J" part need not apply, a humming bird feeder can also be represented as a hamster, rabbit, or rat water dispenser that simply ends in a small tube.

The older generations may also remember a metal saucer that screwed to a fruit jar that was filled and turned over to water the chickens. It simply works by water level receding low enough to allow air to rise in the jar letting more water out.

Hassan's idea will not work unless he lets air in the top of the pipe to allow the water out, unfortunately this equalizes every thing and there is no way to get it back up by opening the bottom valve.

Now if you could compress and expand water like a rubber band without temperature change you may have something. But that is another pipe dream.

Ralph