sudden brake concept

[johannesbender]

A are flywheels
B are pulleys
C are v springs with feet to make contact against a support structure on the frame
D is a thin broad board with 2 racks attached opposite each other left and right and front and back of the board , they run against 2 gears E front and back of the board .
E gears/pinnions

the gears are free to rotate on they're shafts
except being directly connected to large pulleys wich in turn is belted to smaller pulleys on each
side wich is connected to a flywheel each .

there is a gear in front of the double rack and
one in the back , both of which run against
a rack each .

the belts connecting the pulleys are belted such
that one is crossed so that both outer flywheels
turn the same direction.

the rack has 4 rollers on the frame to keep it from leaning
to any side , 1 roller on each side top and bottom
running against the sides of the rack so that
the rack cannot lean to any side but only move
straight. (not drawn)..

all these parts are connected to a frame structure
by thin but rigid enough shafts wich are free to rotate.

the frame is then connected directly to the main
shaft with a flywheel on wich is ratcheted for one
directional spin.

the though experiment is for the rack to fall
down , turn the gears , spin up the flywheels
with more speed due to the pulleys ratios.

when the springs on top press down onto the
frame the torques in the two flywheels wich
turn in the same direction should in theory
release into the main axle and frame to turn
the complete assembly 180 degrees with
the flywheel on the main axle being rotated
then the spring now on the bottom must help
by releasing its pe by pushing the central
rack down with gravity hopefully a little faster.

the top spring acts as a sudden lock for the
flywheels on each side..

this is all speculation on a idea of wich I have
variations. .

[johannesbender]

unrelated to this topic but for general research material
involving a dog a sear and v springs....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheellock

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snaphance

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sear_(firearm)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miquelet

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doglock

well somewhat related. .

[Art]

Hi jb ,

Its always a bit of an 'eye opener' for me when I see a mechanism like the " Augsburg 'puffer' pistol " which was made c 1580 ,- a good 130 years before Bessler exhibited his wheels .

Presumably Bessler and most of the mechanics of his day would have been thoroughly familiar with this technology .

I wonder if Karl would have described an "Augsburg 'puffer'" as being a relatively simple device which expelled a projectile by means of a charge of gunpowder which was ignited with a spark when a trigger was pulled ?

The level of sophistication of the mechanism to produce the spark could very well completely have eluded him ! After all , its only simple engineering ! : )

My hope is that if Besslers wheel requires a sophisticated mechanism of reasonable complexity to deliver the goods , then hopefully it can be arrived at incrementally by following a reasoning process guided by experiment . Because if it can't then I'm going to be beaten ! : )

I wish you all the best with your approach , but try not to pass the point where building and testing the goods becomes too hard to try , - thats a sure way to frustration .

Keep up the good fight !

[johannesbender]

if you research these things like the runner
the bow etc they mostly deal with springs
and essentially PE eg. a runner stretches his
tendons during running wich stores PE and
is then released again during the process. .

tendons were used for bows and cross bows
and torsion springs on ballistas etc. it is also
known that torsion pendulums makes direct
use of a spring in the vertical ...

the fire process uses fuel and fuel is again PE
fire is also apart of the old gunpowder weapons.

roots were used also for bows to store PE .

so it seems that springs or rather PE could be
an important clue , however how a person chooses to interpret such things is up to himself. .

if I take the "seer" to be a phonetically alternative
of "sear" , then I could say that this weapons carry clue's in the form of a dog seer and V springs as we know V-5 also and we have fire ,
the bow crossbow etc were spring/PE powered weapons before those guns were invented.

I think it is best not to get caught up in besslers
riddles and rather just fly solo , it is madness I tell you.

[johannesbender]

I am trying to develop on the idea of a sudden
release of stored energy , however this design
does not fully qualify .

if I directly try and lift a weight as one weight
falls , I would directly trade my ke for pe but
as the falling weight falls it loses pe while the
rising weight gains pe , I think somewhere along
this trade, balanced pe or such is going to become the
problem , so the idea I would like to implement is
letting a weight fall free as much as possible to
store that into something like a flywheel and
then suddenly release it for something , instead
of ACTIVELY exchanging fall for lift .

in this manner PE is the enemy but also the answer. .

[johannesbender]

I was just thinking now when reading about
the dog the sear and hammer , if I store my energy and hold back to wait for the opportune
moment to realease it like when it would be more
efficient it could be practical ..

now if I were to look at besslers old poem
with the crab moving from side to side ,
from research it is obvious that crabs in general
walk sideways or crabwise because it is just
more efficient , so resetting sideways should
be more efficient .

[MrVibrating]

Hi JB it's an ingenious mechanism, the diagrams and descriptions are very clear and easy to follow...

My overriding thought when looking at it is that no asymmetry jumps out at me - i can only see translational and rotational symmetry..

I think the energy available when the board drops linearly is equal to the energy required to revolve back up, and also that conservation of angular momentum of the net system, and Newtons 3rd with regard to torque, and thus the distribution of energy between the flywheels and frame, will remain symmetrical between input and output...

Also, if the frame is free to move, then the flywheels accelerating in the same direction will impart a counter-torque on the frame / net system which will rotate the board's drop angle away from vertical, reducing GPE. If OTOH the frame was held horizontally until the board had dropped, resisting this counter-torque, then you could put the full GPE available into the flywheels (because of the high gear ratio, the rate of drop of the board will depend on the MoI of the flywheels - the higher the MoI's and gear ratio the slower the drop speed and the more available GPE goes into the wheels), when it locks the torques and counter-torques will instantly cancel, with no net change in the system's angular momentum.

There's two simple thought experiments i would refer to to break this down:

- imagine an empty circle with a horizontal red line through the middle. In the circle you can place anything at all - anything can happen - the only requirement is that SOME action must take place, which results in the system's new center of gravity being anywhere above that red line. So for example something drops, something else gets lifted.

Logically, we can see that the desired outcome is impossible - even if it could be done for half a cycle, turning 180° upside-down, we'd get stuck on the other side and never be able to reset again. To be able to complete a cycle, something would have to get progressively lower, dropping through and moving outside the circle.

This thought experiment encapsulates the inherent symmetry of gravitational interactions.

- The second thought experiment involves floating in space, on a large spinning top. It can be any type of spinning top - with a plunger and worm gear, or rip-chord, whatever. It's stationary, and you're riding it, in space. Now try spinning it up.

This encapsulates Newton's 3rd wrt rotary systems, and conservation of AM..


So this system seems to be running into both these walls.

The central message of Noether's theorem is that classical symmetry is enforced by temporal invariance. If forces are only changing across space, but not time, then all closed-loop trajectories though that field yield zero energy (ie. have a net energy of zero).

You HAVE to be thinking in terms of clearly-defined input and output F x D integrals.

And you HAVE to have a condition that causes F to change in time for free. This could be a gradual change over time - especially if it's non-linear - or it could be an instantaneous change between input and output strokes; all that matters is that it changes the net force magnitude between input and output strokes, and that it does so for free - we don't want to have to pay to effect the change, or for any extra work it does or doesn't perform.


Without this clear vision we're like blind men trying to describe a heffalump, while on a tiger hunt. We need to forget about the heffalumps and focus on the tiger - what's it look like, or if we can't see it then what's it smell like, where does it hang out, what are its habits etc.?

The only useful way to envisage, to get some concept, of the animal you're hunting is to break every potential interaction down into that input integral, and an output integral, with some change to the net force integral between the two halves of the interaction, over the given distance or displacement.

Just think I/O F x D. D can't change because we're going in circles, therefore F has to change between I & O.

[johannesbender]

Mrvibrating thank you , I knew it would fail
any kind of real analysis or test but I like
the idea of storing energy , and this is
the main idea here , storing the falling
weights energy somehow and then releasing
it as a separate action , however not done in
this specific example ..


you are correct and I agree with how you think
about breaking things up and that if you
do not know what your looking for you cannot
implement it blindly , that key interaction/result/action has to be defined/exposed before you could use it .

you are heading down a road I like .