mt 137 and then ?

[joan]

Hi all
Not possible to log with my old nick (lap_lap or something like that).
Probably because too much time without posting. Anyway i follow the discussions.
I have build two prtotypes, none of them running.

I want to thanks Joannesbender for share all this reflections about te path.
I am now investigating in exactly the same direction.

We can't change the mass of the weights in a wheel.
We need energy to change the distance between the weights and the shaft.
But there is one thing that we can change: the acceleration. We can modify the direction and then the magnitude of her components regarding a rotating coordinate system. And if we can change the acceleration then we can change the force.

And they way to change the acceleration is the path. Because in fact changing the path we are changing the space-time curvature of the weight.
As Einsten said the gravity (acceleration) is changing the space-time curvature. The opposite must be also true.

Greetings to all.

(I apologize for my bad english)

[johannesbender]

on that point , during simulation the directional vectors of velocity and momentum
alligns with the path , there were some loopy paths that shows increase in velocity and momentum but
saturates again .

i dont know , there must be something to be explored i really believe its clues
and clues have to be followed up , if its not about paths its about numbers or shape
or something . there are some things positive about all the variables we can play with
there is also negatives , what to learn from it ? universal movement of planetary bodys
has ratios that can be reproduced and as such variables we can investigate ?

we are contained within our own gravity field but those bodys arent they depend on each other ,
are we to explore how a path of weight should orbit our earth centre in this field ,
that theres a ratio in this field concerning everything in motion ?

can we modify the path of weights to gain something or to find
a solution towards some hurdle that we have to overcome during design ?

is it something that shows you an integrated problem of most designs ?

if bessler left it as clues as i believe , then theres something to learn , mt 137
has no parts , i have seen some discussion here and there where people try to
point out what it is , i think i found a new perspective .

[johannesbender]

some of the paths resemble the paths we draw to represent atoms paths, orbital paths
geometry , the planets influances on eachother modifies their paths , what influances us ?
gravity alone ? if we were to imagine a path orbiting our centre within our gravity field could there be
one that would sustain like a pendulum throws past the centre of attraction of the earth ?

[johannesbender]

the planets being under eachothers influance each of which moves but stil
depends on eachother to keep their paths , i always believed the only way to
shift the com is to physicly shift weight at its attached point , i also through this
believe have an idea i never mentioned , an idea that involves turning a wheel by keeping the weight
on top by not having a central axle but instead placing the axle on the bottom ,on wich
has a shape that is not round so its edged can grab the square hole in the wheel the
axle goes through , the top axle needs to withdraw from its hole so only the bottom
has recieves all the wheel weight and forms the pivot(centre of rotation) for the wheel
the weight being ontop the axle are now unstable and starts to rotate , the amount
of pull/push experienced at this point where the axle is is so big that the axle cannot
stop its rotation , atleast 180 deg then the same thing must happen with the top axle that became
the bottom axle (axles swapped top and bottom one) , being unstable with the weight above
again the process repeates ..(in theory)

so perhaps the only way is to shift the centre of attachment instead , the connection points ?

if such paths proves only geometrical equality in all divisions( if you were to cut it in half through the axis gravity forms)
then that proves everything in a rotational environment will stay geometricly equal and
that gravity being "the great divider" divides everything equall within a wheel ,
the only option left is to create constant non equal geometry or shift the centre of rotation or
well forget about rotational ob and ou

[johannesbender]

there is however one thing else that bessler may have pointed out , if indeed
rotation and gravity forces equality then by jumping to the spinning top we may see proof
of this and something else !

a top when spun fast , will form an axis in the centre of rotation or where
the mass equaly divides , this axis will become so perpect that it will seek
alignment with gravitys axis through the top (these axises will seek to align) wich showd
during rotation ob will seek alignment (equality) through the centre of rotation BUT
what if we could constantly intervene here so that we keep the tops axis
slightly away from this centre of alignment it seeks with gravity during rotation ?

besslers clue about constantly seeking the centre ? keep the axis from aligning
with gravity during rotation ? like i said centre of rotation shift ,just a bit diffrent

[johannesbender]

when we rotate a wheel with a horizontal centred axle
every weight within will seem to try and follow a path wich
places them in position to be equally positioned around
the centre of rotation , we force equality through rotation yet
we try to force unequality at the same time wich would only
work against eachother , and to top it off gravity working verticly
tries to force equality aswell , if these to functions combine
to seek equality together we are damned , if our com forces
a centre offcentre from the axle this is suppose to become the rotational centre
but cannot rotate around that com because the axle forces the centre of rotation
would the weight not be forced to try and go against our com and realign
to centre with the axle instead ? darn confusing stuff

[joan]

One of my prototypes was an attempt with a kind of wheel ( in fact only two arms like a seesaw) that constantly shift the center of rotation.
Without succes.

We usually think about planets and their satellites but nobody had said that the weights must turn at the same rpm than the wheel does and arround the same center of rotation. Even if the path of one weight is a closed loop carved in the wheel, the weight that follow this path can remains all the time under the center of rotation of the wheel while the wheel turns.

In anhoter post i wil try to post a picture to better explain this point

[johannesbender]

you will find all diffrent path shapes working upwards from 1:1 with the same rotational direction of the
wheel or axle arm and a diffrent one in the oppisite direction , some paths or rather ratios
has multiple possibilties , you can even work on less than 1:1 like 1:0.5 ect .

i must do an experiment of something but cannot simulate now , pc issues at the moment .

next i want to see how planetary bodies rotational rates relate ..

oh and bessler said "saturn mars and jupiter" , look up their paths , experiment with
the ratios you will find some of them very similar .

edit : some will jump up and say sacret geometry

[johannesbender]

before i forget , one way i tried to modify a path was as soon as the weight
reached the bottom of the centre i braked it so it keeps towards the centre and as soon as it
reached to the top i re engaged rotation wich forms a path close to axle on the left
far from axle on the right ..

oh and fitting another arm to an already ratiod gear/wheel and applying a ratio to that wil
produce complexer geometry

[johannesbender]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_(mathematics)

just found this , the paths are there too .
the man resposible links here
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_Grandi
wich links to leipniz...

[zoelra]

Planet/path related info...

[johannesbender]

please ignore all my deluded ramblings I
went through in this topic , while I
would just like to add the following to this old
topic which I just recently found actually exist
with words and names I did not know of when
I started this topic .

so here goes I hope I could show you now
what I think was a clue (possible clue) to
perhaps the direction bessler were heading
into at a time , but I could be wrong ..anyhow.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicycloid

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocycloid

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotrochoid

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle

[Unbalanced]

Not my intention to throw water on this well travelled thought process but countless brilliant minds have explored this concept with the same inevitable conclusion.

Rather than try to put this in my own words, I copy and paste the following which sums up the results of centuries of experimentation into this concept:

From:
http://www.wikipremed.com/mcat_course.p ... 0402000000

The work a conservative force performs on an object in moving it from A to B does not depend on the path. Gravity is a conservative force. With gravitation, the work does not depend on the path taken. It depends only on the end points of the motion.

Let's talk about an important consequence. If the work performed were not path independent, a circular path could be conceived which would dissipate energy, but on the contrary, because gravity is a conservative force, any path which ends in the same initial position must necessarily result in no change in potential energy state. This means that for an isolated gravitational system, the total energy must be the same everywhere. Because an initial state has both kinetic and potential energy, this total energy value gives the total of the kinetic energy plus the potential energy for all other possible states, regardless of the path between states, as long as only gravitational force is involved.

______________________________________________________________

The conclusion that many of the long-term experimenters here on BW.com have come to, resides in the last of the above statement:

"as long as only gravitational force is involved."

This has resulted in many lengthy discussions (here) regarding what other forces could Bessler possibly have utilized? Then the question arises, does gravity play any role at all or could gravity be removed from the equation all altogether?

I have studied MT137 extensively. I have built several models of this illustration as well.

My personal conclusion is this; were I to want to build an extremely strong drum, to cover with oil cloth, to conceal my inner workings and to support a rim that would allow others to grasp, in order to start and stop my wheel, that this MT137 design, would be the perfect answer.

What I personally find most intriguing with this MT137 illustration, is the diameter of the inner circle surrounding the axle. This "cooper's barrel" as it has been referred to. This may have contained enough of a particular substance to have powered the wheel for a long duration. A thermo-chemical reaction similar to the heat produced when adding water to caustic soda being just one of many possibilities.

Edited several times for clarity.

[johannesbender]

agreed , it is not that I wish to say the path
brings about motion rather now in hindsight
that it is another way of moving weights
on a path as such to position it closer
or further from the centre by using rotation
instead of other techniques .

the path wil remain in a constant orientation
as long as the ratios and rpm stay constant.

the paths orientation can be initially re orientated
depending on the relative positions of the gears.

the path can also rotate at a certain speed while
the shape remains constant.

the path can also be modified ..

however what wil drive it is of course another
topic ..

this was mere experiments done on trying to
reproduce certain geometrical features assumed
as cluess like the clover or the pentagonal etc..

geometry is beautiful .

[david jenkins]

JB
If you put three gears around a geared axle and put weights on the outside of each gear and rotate them around the axle you will get a geometric shape and keep it out of balance at least for a part of the rotation.