Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Moderator: scott
-
- Devotee
- Posts: 1605
- Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:50 am
Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Since some members of this forum appear to be a bit confused about the distinction between a couple of these things, I thought it might be a good idea to review them.
So, I pulled the following diagram from a table in an old edition of the Machinery's Handbook available through Google Books:
We can see in this diagram three distinct points that are shown along a vertical line and that are labeled with an upper case "A," "B" and "C" which represent respectively the "center of gravity," the "center of gyration" and the "center of oscillation."
We can also see in the diagram three different lengths labeled with the lower case "a," "b" and "l" and which represent respectively the distance from the top end of the line to the center of gravity, the distance from the top end of the line to the center of gyration and the distance from the top end of the line to the center of oscillation.
In the latter two cases, of course, the top end of the line would represent the center of rotation and also the pivot/suspension point for a pendulum, so the distance "b" would be the "radius of gyration" and the distance "l" would be the "radius of oscillation."
Since the center of gravity of the depicted line is shown at the midpoint of the line, we can assume, then, that there is a uniform mass distribution along the line.
Now, points and lines are mathematical concepts and by definition they don't have any width, area or volume, but they are still quite useful as tools to help us calculate real world conditions. Obviously, in the real world we have to deal with mass taking up actual volume, but using point masses and massive lines can still give us pretty good approximations for real world things like thin rigid massive rods or compact masses. If, of course, we needed greater accuracy we could do more complex calculations and actually take into account greater detail about the real world volumes and mass distributions.
Now, most all of us should be familiar with what the center of gravity is. Near the surface of the earth where the gravitational field lines are approximately parallel, the center of gravity of a system of mass is essentially the center of mass of that system. As shown in the following diagram, if that system of mass is rigid, then we can support the total weight of the mass at its center of gravity and without causing or affecting any rotation of the system. In other words, the center of gravity is the balance point.
In the following diagram, if all the mass of the thin rigid rod on the left were concentrated in the sphere or cylinder on the right, then the two systems would be rotationally equivalent when turned around the shown centers of rotation. Both would have the same rotational inertia - the same moment of inertia - and if they were both rotating with the same angular speed, they would have the same kinetic energies.
In this diagram, if all the mass of the long rigid rod on the left was concentrated in the sphere or cylinder on the right and both systems were used as pendulums, then they both would oscillate at the same frequency and so have the same period of oscillation when allowed to swing through a small angle.
They do not have the same center of gravity, however, nor do they have the same moment of inertia or radius of gyration. They are not rotationally equivalent.
In a simple pendulum where we use a point mass to represent all the mass of the system, the center of gravity, the center of gyration and the center of oscillation are all at that same point. Obviously, though, these things will most likely be at different points for a compound pendulum, with the location of the points then being dependent upon the actual distribution of mass in the system.
We can calculate the frequency and period of oscillation for either the simple pendulum or compound pendulum, though, if we use the "radius of oscillation (l)" in the following formulas - where the radius of oscillation of a compound pendulum, then, is the length of its equivalent simple pendulum.
Now, if we look at the following formula from the Machinery's Handbook that a member of this forum used while apparently believing it gave the radius of gyration for a two point mass system, we can see that there are no terms related to the actual geometry of the two masses themselves, so it indeed appears to be a two point mass approximation of something.
--- continued ---
So, I pulled the following diagram from a table in an old edition of the Machinery's Handbook available through Google Books:
We can see in this diagram three distinct points that are shown along a vertical line and that are labeled with an upper case "A," "B" and "C" which represent respectively the "center of gravity," the "center of gyration" and the "center of oscillation."
We can also see in the diagram three different lengths labeled with the lower case "a," "b" and "l" and which represent respectively the distance from the top end of the line to the center of gravity, the distance from the top end of the line to the center of gyration and the distance from the top end of the line to the center of oscillation.
In the latter two cases, of course, the top end of the line would represent the center of rotation and also the pivot/suspension point for a pendulum, so the distance "b" would be the "radius of gyration" and the distance "l" would be the "radius of oscillation."
Since the center of gravity of the depicted line is shown at the midpoint of the line, we can assume, then, that there is a uniform mass distribution along the line.
Now, points and lines are mathematical concepts and by definition they don't have any width, area or volume, but they are still quite useful as tools to help us calculate real world conditions. Obviously, in the real world we have to deal with mass taking up actual volume, but using point masses and massive lines can still give us pretty good approximations for real world things like thin rigid massive rods or compact masses. If, of course, we needed greater accuracy we could do more complex calculations and actually take into account greater detail about the real world volumes and mass distributions.
Now, most all of us should be familiar with what the center of gravity is. Near the surface of the earth where the gravitational field lines are approximately parallel, the center of gravity of a system of mass is essentially the center of mass of that system. As shown in the following diagram, if that system of mass is rigid, then we can support the total weight of the mass at its center of gravity and without causing or affecting any rotation of the system. In other words, the center of gravity is the balance point.
In the following diagram, if all the mass of the thin rigid rod on the left were concentrated in the sphere or cylinder on the right, then the two systems would be rotationally equivalent when turned around the shown centers of rotation. Both would have the same rotational inertia - the same moment of inertia - and if they were both rotating with the same angular speed, they would have the same kinetic energies.
In this diagram, if all the mass of the long rigid rod on the left was concentrated in the sphere or cylinder on the right and both systems were used as pendulums, then they both would oscillate at the same frequency and so have the same period of oscillation when allowed to swing through a small angle.
They do not have the same center of gravity, however, nor do they have the same moment of inertia or radius of gyration. They are not rotationally equivalent.
In a simple pendulum where we use a point mass to represent all the mass of the system, the center of gravity, the center of gyration and the center of oscillation are all at that same point. Obviously, though, these things will most likely be at different points for a compound pendulum, with the location of the points then being dependent upon the actual distribution of mass in the system.
We can calculate the frequency and period of oscillation for either the simple pendulum or compound pendulum, though, if we use the "radius of oscillation (l)" in the following formulas - where the radius of oscillation of a compound pendulum, then, is the length of its equivalent simple pendulum.
Now, if we look at the following formula from the Machinery's Handbook that a member of this forum used while apparently believing it gave the radius of gyration for a two point mass system, we can see that there are no terms related to the actual geometry of the two masses themselves, so it indeed appears to be a two point mass approximation of something.
--- continued ---
I don't believe in conspiracies!
I prefer working alone.
I prefer working alone.
-
- Devotee
- Posts: 1605
- Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:50 am
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
...but according to the accompanying text seen here, the variable "l" that it gives is supposedly the length from the suspension point to the "center of oscillation."
That would mean that the equation actually gives the "radius of oscillation" rather than the "radius of gyration" - which, of course, is the length of the equivalent simple pendulum for the compound pendulum so that one can calculate its frequency and period of oscillation when, of course, it is being used as a, get this, "pendulum."
In this snippet from another handbook we can see the relation between the radius of gyration and the radius of oscillation, though, and so we could easily convert between them if we knew or could calculate the distance from the pivot point to the center of mass of the system.
So, if one needed the radius of gyration in his calculations and yet were to find out that his own so-called "radius of gyration calculation" was actually a "radius of oscillation calculation" instead, then he would certainly want to correct his mistaken math by going back and calculating the radius of gyration properly. He, of course, could either redo his calculation using the right formula or he could perhaps just calculate the position of the center of mass of the system and then convert the radius of oscillation value that he has already obtained to the correct value as per the above mathematical relationship.
...rather than, of course, defending absolute falsehoods and making false allegations against others in this forum.
Dwayne
That would mean that the equation actually gives the "radius of oscillation" rather than the "radius of gyration" - which, of course, is the length of the equivalent simple pendulum for the compound pendulum so that one can calculate its frequency and period of oscillation when, of course, it is being used as a, get this, "pendulum."
In this snippet from another handbook we can see the relation between the radius of gyration and the radius of oscillation, though, and so we could easily convert between them if we knew or could calculate the distance from the pivot point to the center of mass of the system.
So, if one needed the radius of gyration in his calculations and yet were to find out that his own so-called "radius of gyration calculation" was actually a "radius of oscillation calculation" instead, then he would certainly want to correct his mistaken math by going back and calculating the radius of gyration properly. He, of course, could either redo his calculation using the right formula or he could perhaps just calculate the position of the center of mass of the system and then convert the radius of oscillation value that he has already obtained to the correct value as per the above mathematical relationship.
...rather than, of course, defending absolute falsehoods and making false allegations against others in this forum.
Dwayne
I don't believe in conspiracies!
I prefer working alone.
I prefer working alone.
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Dwayne, you have clearly won your argument with jim_mich. Great presentation, well done.
What a pity that all you get in return is silly finger pointing and constant harping accusations of bullying by the defeated. Very poor character on Jim's part - just my opinion.
Regardless, know that some here do appreciate your efforts. I guess you can take some consolation though, apparently silence is now a measure of support on the forum :D
What a pity that all you get in return is silly finger pointing and constant harping accusations of bullying by the defeated. Very poor character on Jim's part - just my opinion.
Regardless, know that some here do appreciate your efforts. I guess you can take some consolation though, apparently silence is now a measure of support on the forum :D
Dwayne attacks me again, but subtly without naming names. So who is the bully?
I was going to let this slide, but then Bill comes along, stirs the pot, and also attacks me again. So who is the bully?
I was going to let this slide, but then Bill comes along, stirs the pot, and also attacks me again. So who is the bully?
It's extremely poor character to keep harping on this after almost two years. Let it go, guys. Stop being bullies.Bill wrote:Very poor character on Jim's part - just my opinion though.
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Dwayne has put forward a reasoned and civil argument and in response you deflect it with nonsense claims that he attacks you and is a bully. You then go on to claim that others, through their silence or their opinion, must also support this so-called bullying against you.
Staggeringly poor character on your part, Jim - in my opinion.
Staggeringly poor character on your part, Jim - in my opinion.
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Jim is deflecting again. So who is the liar? Come clean, Jim. Stop being a liar.
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
(Sorry to Dwayne for putting this here, but it seems necessary)
Now, as someone else would say, I find your comment offensive... also ignorant and intolerant.
Here in America any one of 51 percent of us would look up the word 'spelt' in a source from this century and not specific to American English and would find its meaning to be "(chiefly British) past and past participle of SPELL."
We would realize that America isn't the center of the universe and that English originated in Grimer's country and just "let it go".
Instead, in true form of the other 49 percent of Americans, you had to show your intolerance by pointing out a non-mistake mistake.
It's as if you couldn't just be sorry for your real mistake of spelling Grimer's name wrong, but had to stretch to find some nitpick thing to deflect the fact that you were wrong.
This isn't an isolated incident either. You do this all the time under the guise of "just being helpful".
You tell Bill to reduce his posted image size to "be helpful" and then proceed to post a rubbish mpg of your own that many people can't play because not everyone has Windows XP on their computer like you, or they are using mobile devices.
You publicly chastise Johan's punctuation and produce some pretty lousy grammatical posts yourself. Maybe you could have "been helpful" to him with a private message instead?
Show some tolerance and you'll get some in return.
PS, I know you'll be tempted to find quotes of mine where you think I'm being intolerant, in order to deflect attention from you and your issues. When you do, you'd better also bring along some context. People claiming they have a working device without proof shouldn't be tolerated, but I would likely just use a joke instead of how you tend to tell people they look fat in that dress, just to be helpful. :-)
Jim, speaking of not letting things go, what do you call this little nugget? It's only due to Grimer actually being an English Gentleman that he didn't get offended. Had this been said to you, I'm sure you would have whined up a storm.jim_mich wrote:PS, Here in America, 'spelt' is a type of grain. Over here we would consider 'spelt' as being spelled incorrectly.
Now, as someone else would say, I find your comment offensive... also ignorant and intolerant.
Here in America any one of 51 percent of us would look up the word 'spelt' in a source from this century and not specific to American English and would find its meaning to be "(chiefly British) past and past participle of SPELL."
We would realize that America isn't the center of the universe and that English originated in Grimer's country and just "let it go".
Instead, in true form of the other 49 percent of Americans, you had to show your intolerance by pointing out a non-mistake mistake.
It's as if you couldn't just be sorry for your real mistake of spelling Grimer's name wrong, but had to stretch to find some nitpick thing to deflect the fact that you were wrong.
This isn't an isolated incident either. You do this all the time under the guise of "just being helpful".
You tell Bill to reduce his posted image size to "be helpful" and then proceed to post a rubbish mpg of your own that many people can't play because not everyone has Windows XP on their computer like you, or they are using mobile devices.
You publicly chastise Johan's punctuation and produce some pretty lousy grammatical posts yourself. Maybe you could have "been helpful" to him with a private message instead?
Show some tolerance and you'll get some in return.
PS, I know you'll be tempted to find quotes of mine where you think I'm being intolerant, in order to deflect attention from you and your issues. When you do, you'd better also bring along some context. People claiming they have a working device without proof shouldn't be tolerated, but I would likely just use a joke instead of how you tend to tell people they look fat in that dress, just to be helpful. :-)
-
- Addict
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:21 pm
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Jim, please stop with the " who's the bully " routine. It is getting so old.
. I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills.
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
If stating facts and opinion in a civilized manner, without even mentioning beards or beard accessories, is now an attack, then so be it. Let the record show I "attacked" Jim.
What's it called when you run away from a discussion and hide under the guise of being a victim?
What's it called when you run away from a discussion and hide under the guise of being a victim?
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Hey hey calm down I'm gonna lay the smackdown on both of you wussies.
Wheres the designs @ ?
Wheres the designs @ ?
Ed, its called choice. I have the right to decide what subjects I choose to discuss, and what I choose to not discuss. Why do you insist on bullying me into a discussion that I've chosen to no longer enter into? Ed, your whole attitude is a bullying attitude.
Ed attacks me again, in a subtle underhanded way. If I were black, would you be making snide remarks about not mentioning my skin color? So who is the bully?
Ed attacks me again, in a subtle underhanded way. If I were black, would you be making snide remarks about not mentioning my skin color? So who is the bully?
re: Centers of Gravity, Gyration and Oscillation
Jim, I'm not specifically referring to your avoidance with Dwayne, I'm talking about any conversation where you have to punctuate it with childish school-yard talk, instead of resolving differences like an adult.
I didn't just start making those jokes out of nowhere and for no reason, despite what you'd like everyone to think. I choose that rather than your crude method of calling people "toad poop" or "slim balls" or "asses" or (God help us) "liberals" or to "f##k off", etc. etc.
I apologized once for it, and I meant it then. Not like your non-apology apologies. "I'm sorry if..." But you simply can't acknowledge any culpability in anything and even try to make amends with anyone.
And talk about subtle and underhanded, what do you call butting in and posting all those rogue's gallery images? You know it was in response to James and his hidden insult to me and that you couldn't just post my picture there because it would be too obvious. So instead you violate all those people's privacy? I still accepted your non-apology apology though.
When your behavior changes then the mirror will fade. If not, then it will fester and create more Dwaynes and Cloud Campers and Eds and Bills and...
Sorry again Dwayne for my part in the diversion.
As for your ridiculous skin color comparison, yes, I might. If we all knew you were black but your avatar was a picture of you in white face. But we are talking about facial hair, not racial issues. And your beard is white, not black. Stop deflecting.jim_mich wrote:Ed attacks me again, in a subtle underhanded way. If I were black, would you be making snide remarks about not mentioning my skin color? So who is the bully?
I didn't just start making those jokes out of nowhere and for no reason, despite what you'd like everyone to think. I choose that rather than your crude method of calling people "toad poop" or "slim balls" or "asses" or (God help us) "liberals" or to "f##k off", etc. etc.
I apologized once for it, and I meant it then. Not like your non-apology apologies. "I'm sorry if..." But you simply can't acknowledge any culpability in anything and even try to make amends with anyone.
And talk about subtle and underhanded, what do you call butting in and posting all those rogue's gallery images? You know it was in response to James and his hidden insult to me and that you couldn't just post my picture there because it would be too obvious. So instead you violate all those people's privacy? I still accepted your non-apology apology though.
When your behavior changes then the mirror will fade. If not, then it will fester and create more Dwaynes and Cloud Campers and Eds and Bills and...
Sorry again Dwayne for my part in the diversion.
Last edited by Ed on Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.