Conservative forces

[rlortie]

Ken,

your last JPG. is getting close to what I had in mind, I must have done a decent job of explaining. My idea needs a little more leveraged mass and inertia to keep it running if it will.

You stated that you did not know I was into magnets. I have been fascinated with them since the age of six when I received two small ivory scottie dogs about 1-/12" inches tall. They were mounted on magnet base's. If you attempted to put one behind the others tail he would spin around for a face off. Then at age 18 I really got involved while learning all about EMF, basic electricity and vacuum tube electronics.

Been chasing every known attempt for magnetic motors ever since. Have made some contributions of my own along the way and belong to all the leading yohoo groups related to magnets. My favorite is a suspended wheel with Magnets attracting and repelling to keep it in a constant plane. It is similar to a Faraday Bi-polor and displays the reaction of fields cutting at slow rpm.

Of all the inventors out there, I am probably more impressed with Bill Muller's original 1987 design of his, Uni-polar High frequency Motor alternator. First published as property of "Canadian Amplified Magnetic Propulsion Systems, (CAMPS)

I would like to pursue his ideas only without the electronic timed coils. There has to be away to use gravity equal to negating one pole of a magnet. Muller' concept of odd and even, creating an unbalanced "hunting" effect has always intrigued me. I believe that this hunting, can also be applied to a gravity wheel.

Ed,

I thank you again for your input and am looking forward to seeing more on your minato concept.

Ralph

[Jonathan]

This is what I had in mind. Not shown is that x is the distance the inner chamber moves relative to the outer. The inner chamber needn't have a horizontal line of symetry, but it and the outer chamber must be cylindrical. In your case Ed, the lower portion of the inner chamber that is open to the water can be excluded, it produces the nonlinear k when pulled above the water line.

[Ed]

Jonathan,

Thanks for the nonlinear spring info. I can see it will be very helpful. I'm sure it will be easier for you to help with that more once I show my designs and explain.

I dug up some of the info last night and discussed it with Stewart, so I'm getting back into it. This discussion is good, because I'm getting new ideas and help from you all!

I should have all the material up on the weekend, so please hand in there until then. :-)

-Ed

[amateur]

... I have never heard of anybody else being able to duplicate it successfully. ...

ken

I believe a Canadian claimed to have duplicated it quite some time ago... I'm thinking the name was Al Francoer (?). I believe he also came up with the concept of the interference disk generator...

[sleepy]

Ken,
It appears to me that in your last illustration of the pendulum/magnet wheel,the pendulum would have to have more mass than the wheel in order to give it any push.Once the pendulum has that extra mass,then the wheel can no longer drive the pendulum.Plus,once the pendulum is at the middle of the row of magnets,it will then push equally clockwise and counterclockwise.These are the problems that caused me to give up on magnet driven devices years ago.It's EXTREMELY frustrating.At least with gravity,the direction and force is predictable.

[rlortie]

sleepy,

Part of what you say is true but further scrutiny will show that there is a possible solution.

First the pendulum needs only enough mass to hold the stator magnet frame in place during the repel cycle. The mass in the static balanced wheel will help build inertial energyand not effect the stator. So the heavier the wheel the better.

Your statement that when the pendulum is in the middle of the row that it will push equally clock wise and counter clock wise is not quite true. Just as a Tommi or any other name you call it,. once the rotor is in the repelling field or in the ramp, either the attraction or repulsion is no longer present. This is the advantage that won Howard Johnson his patent. and has been shown time and again on various forums.

As of this writing and to my knowledge no one has been able to complete the loop as they have always relied on the mass of the magnets alone to run the ramp. This does not produce enough stored energy to overcome the re-entry.

Norman Bollinger, a familiar name with a number of groups has just announced On JLNlabs and Minatowheel that he has possibly discovered a method to null or cancel the gate entry repulsion. I have communicated with him for a number of years and take stock in what ever he posts.

The problem is getting the rotor past the initial starting point by moving the stator magnet or attempting to deflect the field. the rest of the travel through the ramp is positive output.

My thoughts are that this does not dictate the need of a pendulum, but could be accomplished by cam and linkage. I have the image of a very dense flywheel driven by belt or gears that double or triples the rpm of the rotor, that in turn would smooth out the "gate entry lapse pulse"

In the mean time I will patiently wait to see what Ed, Ken and others have to offer.

Ralph

[primemignonite]

GENERAL MESSAGE:

Ahh, the Wesley Ward Gary story!

I have done a fair amount of research on our dear Wesely. He had about a dozen patents to his name, most of which were railroad signaling devices, and none for anything PM.

He ran a boarding house just full of interesting characters: photographers, wood engravers and printers. He listed himself as an "electrician", which for the 1870's was pretty nifty stuff. He had a cook and a maid, a little daughter named Nellie, and a doubtlessly very patient wife. My guess is that he worked for one of the big railroad companies or possibly some vendor to them.

There was trouble in paradise for him, though. He was constantly pecked at by certain big publication editors, similarly to the way Bessler was goaded by those three, horrifying, jealous reprobates from that neighboring German state.

Edgar Mayhew Bacon, who authored the famous article appearing in Harper's, was about twenty years the junior of Wesley, he being in his early twenties when he wrote it. I believe that Wesley was a trickster similar to Bessler, and for equally good reasons too. He probably didn't mislead Bacon, but rather, just allowed him to write things as he, Bacon, saw them and believed them to be, rather than the way they truly were. To try to understand what is there, then implement it in mechanics without benefit of some SERIOUS, between-the-lines divination, is a sure road to More Disappointment land.

I have photo likenesses of both Gary and Bacon - the very DEVIL to find, particularly Gary.

This saga is an interesting one and has real legs - book treatment class - and is a whole lot more accessible than that of the Bessler, which is from really antique times, as related to us here and now.

b/r, James Miller

[ovyyus]

Hi James, I tried implementing the designs and concepts outlined in that infamous Harpers article some years ago. I was able to confirm some of what was conveyed but the illusive self-moving arrangements remained... illusive.

I'd certainly like to see a photo of Gary and hear anything more you might like to add about his life and/or inventions. Facinating stuff.

[Wheeler]

Sleepy
Hello can you tell me where to find the post on Kens last pendulum/magnet wheel you described in your post .

It appears to me that in your last illustration of the pendulum/magnet wheel,

[primemignonite]

Dear ovyyus,

Greetings! I am happy to hear that you are pursuing Mr. Gary's designs. Yes, the self-moving feature aways seems to elude one, but that is part of the fun of it, I suppose. Problem is, that if anything ever DID move "of itself" the succeeding viewer might well die of shock on the spot! It could happen!

As to your request for his image and more factoids: my book, when it finally appears, will "tell all", as the distinguished detective Poirot used to say. Being rather old, poor and decrepit of body, mind and spirit, I must corral all my resources and not let too many out without recompense. I hope that you will understand.

I have to go to the East Coast to do research, search grave yards, libraries, the usual things. I can only imagine what Mr. Collins had to do in order to find all of the wonderful tit-bits on dear Bessler that he did. He must still be a young sprite in order to have done it all.

As a kind of consolation for my inability to comply with your request, I will post one rather nasty (but fascinating) lambasting done by one of his main bearded tormenters.

b/r, James Miller

[ovyyus]

Hi James, you had better put me on your book pre-order list then. Please contact me when it's ready. Thanks.

[primemignonite]

Dear ovyyus,

As promised, here it is:

New York.
June, 1879

It appears that Mr. Gary has for a long time been dabbling, experimentally, with steel magnets. Very unfortunately for him, he neglected to investigate what others had done, before he set out to make new discoveries for himself, and the result was that he rediscovered some old observations, and, giving them an erroneous interpretation, he came to the conclusion that he had made a new discovery. His imaginary neutral field led him to the conclusion that he would finally succeed in producing motion by magnetic attraction, and in this belief, as soon as he had a machine which was almost perpetual motion, he announced that he had found it, made some people believe so, got, by some hook or crook, a description full of false pretenses of the affair in Harpers' Monthly, and in this way the subject was brought to the attention of men who were competent to judge in regard to the matter, and they of course declared it a humbug, as in our present state of knowledge we know positively that a man who pretends that he can do work without any transformation of energy -- in other words, obtain power out of nothing, is as much a humbug as a man who pretends that he can actually produce eggs from an empty bag. Now the latter thing has been done, and hundreds have seen it, but they know it is done by what are called legerdemain tricks. It is the same with the Gary motor; those who have seen it go, may be sure that it operates on the same principle.

Our opinion in regard to Mr. Gary, above expressed, was formed immediately after we read the account of his invention, or pretended discovery, without seeing his machine. We have recently been informed that Mr. Gary showed his machine to the late Prof. Henry, who, after listening patiently to Gary's explanations, said: "My dear friend, buy $50 worth of books, and study up magnetism before you waste any more time experimenting".

The personal friends of Mr. Gary appear to labor under the impression that his discovery is not credited because he does not belong to the "ring" of scientific professors -- that if it had come from Profs. Henry or John W. Draper, it would have been heralded all over the world as an important contribution to science. We can assure those who are of that opinion that this would by no means be the case. If the great scientists named had announced this thing as one of their new discoveries, the whole scientific world would have lamented the fact that such eminent men had become crazy, as it would be impossible for them to advance such ideas without having become insane. We do not maintain that Mr. Gary is insane, because a man of his caliber may advance the most absurd ideas from sheer, ignorance, which ideas, when uttered by a man of knowledge, could only proceed from the loss of his intellect.

To any one familiar with the phenomena presented by the attraction of magnetized steel bars and horseshoes, there is nothing whatever new in Gary's experiments, except in those which do not work, and cannot be made to work, his pictures notwithstanding. It is easy enough to picture a machine and say it goes, but it is a different thing to bring the machine itself forward and demonstrate it by actual motion. This Mr. Gary has failed to do; months ago it was announced at the Polytechnic Club of the American Institute, which meets every Thursday evening at the Cooper Union, that Mr. Gary would come to exhibit his machine; but it appears that he labors under the same difficulty as all other searchers after perpetual motion -- the machine is ready, or almost ready, and it goes -- or rather, almost goes; only a little trifling improvement is needed, to demonstrate that the inventor is not a fool. Well, we will see.

Nasty, no? Notice the tone of snide condescension throughout. Now, this hit-piece was from way back in the Nineteenth Century when a man's reputation was meaningful, and his honor EVERYTHING; gunfights often ensued if either were to be besmirched even slightly. Also, do notice the threat of 'branding by insanity', if even one of their own acknowledged great ones were to have agreed to the viability of such a proposition, as perpetual motion. Then, as now; not much changes with the human ability to bring destruction down upon one another by these hateful, slimy rhetorical means. In our day, ovyyus, the good ones who have souls and hearts still within them, GET OUT of the establishment physicist hate machine/rat race, such as it has been configured to be by vicious corporatism and strutting, overbearing paranoid government; the late, greatly lamented Dr. Eugene Mallove, standing as one example of one who DID remove himself from it's vile company.

Hope you like it, AND, that it wets your appetite for the WHOLE THING, that is IF I live to complete it!

Take care and

a/b/r, James Miller

[ovyyus]

Thanks James, very interesting. May you live long and publish :)

[Ed]

I've already seen this. After I bought my original copy of the Harper's article, I found the "Making of America" project while researching Gary myself.

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/ ... 14-0058-86

Do a search on Google for "making of america" and you will find many institutions have their own, and many have different resources.

This link:

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/moa_browse.html

is where I found not only the Harper's article, but many references to Gary in the Manufacturer and Builder. The editor seems to have it in for Gary, as James said.

Here is the page where you can find the stuff James posted above, along with some other stuff:

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/ ... 1-0011-333

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/ ... 1-0011-357

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/ ... 1-0011-194

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/ ... 1-0009-450

I found more references to Gary than these articles, but I would have to dig them up. It is interesting to read these and other articles from the time. It's clear they had similar issues to those we face today. Gas, instead of oil, was big business back then. Somewhere in the archives, I found a reference to a crude "fax" machine being tested. It was one of those old-style glass photograph cameras, which was sent over a telegraph and developed at the other end. Amazing stuff happened back then! Surly someone must have built something that worked at some point in history.

James, I'd be interested to know what other material will be in your book? Other than small "tid-bits" like these, I know of only three patents (1 US, 2 Canadian) and the Harper's article that have anything to do with energy machines.

Have you found newspaper articles as well, like the one mentioned in the Harper's article about the perpetual motor demonstration? I believe it would have been a local Huntingdon, Pennsylvania, June, 1875 paper?

Thanks. The book sounds interesting!

-Ed

[primemignonite]

Dear ovyyus,

You are most welcomed. Hope you liked the review. It took awhile to type out for the page, but it's good practice.

a/b/r, James Miller