Why only four pounds?

[Mark]

4 pounds... LOL... where's that ascii thumbs-up when I need it ??

[triplock]

Grimer
You quite right that I don't build either. It has saved me a fortune with the amount of crap I've designed over the years !!

You are, of course, entitled to continue to view your baby as the most beautiful thing in the World. I'm glad though that you aren't going to build it as cash in the pocket and hope are preferable to being skint and full of despair.

Chris

[John Collins]

With regard to the effort required to bring the wheel to a stop, I would remind people of the words in Fischer von Erlach's letter to Desaguliers in London, "I then stopped the wheel with much difficulty, holding on to the circumference with both hands. An attempt to stop it suddenly would raise a man from the ground."

JC

[ovyyus]

John, Fischer described Bessler's wheel in his 1721 letter to Desaguliers. He was 65 years old at the time. He died 2 years later in 1723. Perhaps something to consider in relation to his difficulty handling the big Kassel wheel?

[jim_mich]

He was 65 years old at the time. He died 2 years later in 1723. Perhaps something to consider in relation to his difficulty handling the big Kassel wheel?

Is this an example of a typical younger persons warped perspective towards older people?

Bessler was age 65 when he died. Same age as Fischer when he inspected Bessler's wheel. Do you suppose Bessler was also weak? After all Bessler died at age 65. But wait. Bessler was building windmills at age 65. So a 65 year old man need not be weak. But then Bessler dropped dead, literally. My point is that age 65 does not imply a person is frail and weak. So I don't think anyone needs to consider Fischer's age in relation to his difficulty handling the big Kassel wheel. Only an ill-informed young person would suggest such a thought. Enough said.

Its obvious we will never know the weight of Bessler's Kassel wheel. But from all indications, its upper upper weight limit might be about 1000 lbs. Numerous times the weight of just the wheel has been estimated. John Collins in PM-AAMS estimated the empty wheel at about 500 lbs. John estimated 192 lbs of weight. You can read how he arrived at his figures on page 173 of PM-AAMS. John assumed weights 2-1/2 inches, which fit inside a 15 inches of interior space of the wheel, making the total wheel about 700 lbs.

But suppose the weights were about 4 inch OD by 3/4 inch thick, thus still weighing about 4 lbs. This would allow 20 weight-disks within the 15 inches, which would increase the weight of the weights to about 640 lbs. Then add the weight of the wheel itself and the total assembled working wheel might tip the scale somewhere around 1140 lbs.

What I take from all this is exactly what Bessler wrote, "the empty wheel was so heavy that it could hardly be lifted to its new bearings. With the weights it would have needed the Devil to lift it."

Bessler's empty wheel was probably somewhere between 350 to 500 lbs. This would make it difficult but not impossible to move to its new bearings.

I would put the upper limit for the total weight of the assembled 12 ft "difficult to stop" wheel, to be somewhere around 900 to 1200 lbs. Such would be the line where Bessler's wheel crossed into the impossible to stop realm. If any heavier then the wheel would be become impossible for Fisher or Bessler or Bessler's assistant to stop it.

[Unbalanced]

My thanks as always to Dwayne and Jim_Mich. Your math skills are appreciated, an asset to these discussions.

John Collins, thanks to you for the quote: "I then stopped the wheel with much difficulty... "

Jim_Mich, In addressing your original question, "Why only four pound weights?" I find your answers come up short.

First, I agree with those that believe that Bessler would have had little problem melting lead with any available flame given enough heat and enough time.

Secondly more weight would not necessarily mean more power, just more kinetic energy.

Thirdly, though in my own wheel construction practice, I reuse the weights I have already purchased most often, it seems unlikely to me that Bessler would have used more of the weights from his six foot diameter wheels to construct 12 foot diameter wheels. Not impossible, just unlikely if we assume that Karl was subsidizing the materials acquisition costs. This is as good an answer as any though. Copy the first success and multiply the mechanisms.

What seems a more likely answer to me is that moving or resetting, very heavy weights would be more difficult than moving lighter ones. These heavier weights would have presented more friction. Better to reset many smaller weights than fewer, heavier ones.

Bessler's wheels could have had a ton of weights that were fixed i.e. not meant to shift but rather just add kinetic energy as in a flywheel.

What I may never get my head around is how can any amount of weight lift an equal amount of weight and to the same elevation.

Our experiments to date have amply demonstrated that no configuration of weights or weight shifting devises (within a closed system) can be made to be anywhere near 100% efficient much less than 100+%.

What box are we not thinking out of then? That weights were magically transported to the top? Even fraud seems inexplicable in a multi-week test run.

What configuration is always unstable, that wants only a subtle shove to begin continuously falling?

Thanks for keeping us thinking Jim_Mich.

[Ed]

Bessler was age 65 when he died. Same age as Fischer when he inspected Bessler's wheel. Do you suppose Bessler was also weak? After all Bessler died at age 65. But wait. Bessler was building windmills at age 65. So a 65 year old man need not be weak. But then Bessler dropped dead, literally. My point is that age 65 does not imply a person is frail and weak. So I don't think anyone needs to consider Fischer's age in relation to his difficulty handling the big Kassel wheel. Only an ill-informed young person would suggest such a thought. Enough said.

Yes, Bessler himself may have been weak. The average life expectancy in the mid-1700s was 35-40. Only an ill-informed senior citizen would get defensive. Bessler didn't build windmills, he didn't even complete one. Bessler may have fallen because he was frail or forgetful, or maybe his great 65 year-old beard threw him off balance, who knows? Stop being so defensive! Nobody implied anything about your condition by discussing Fischer.

[jim_mich]

Bessler may have fallen because he was frail or forgetful, or maybe his great 65 year-old beard threw him off balance, who knows? Stop being so defensive! Nobody implied anything about your condition by discussing Fischer.

What does this discussion have to do with my age or the condition of my facial hair? Besides, Bessler's pictures show him with no beard. So back off Ed. You're out of line. You're acting the troll.

The average life expectancy in the mid-1700s was 35-40.

Yes the average life expectancy was short, mostly because of infectious diseases. My point is that early death (avg. age 35-40) does not imply that people were frail back then. Those that managed to live to an old age were the strong and healthy ones. Thus it would seem the average 65 year old from 300 years ago would be healthy and strong. So assuming Fischer was frail and weak is faulty logic, unless you have some facts to back it up.

Bessler didn't build windmills, he didn't even complete one.

Obvious nit-picking by Ed. How do you know that Bessler never built an earlier windmill? Its just your assumption that his last building project was his first windmill. Right?

You still have a lot to learn, young whipper-snapper Ed.

[Andyb]

John hi,i feel that the point concerning friction with a rotating weight is incorrect, i feel it would be lower friction by keeping one heavy rotating weight with a rail in the circumference of the weight to lower the resistance rather than splitting the weight up as you propose,imho of course ,oh yes i wanted your opinion on this,bessler said that later he could cause 1/5 to lift a bl this implies that the wheel is ob and that the 1/4 /1/5 are both loss systems the later being better,the reason i bring this up is because i feel it is a big clue and will help some one to solve this puzzle ,all the best Andy.

[Ed]

What does this discussion have to do with my age or the condition of my facial hair?

Exactly! What, indeed.

Besides, Bessler's pictures show him with no beard. So back off Ed. You're out of line. You're acting the troll.

That is your assumption... that because one engraving of a man at a younger age didn't have a beard, he must never have had one? You don't have a beard in your profile engraving, but we know you've had/have one. Also, I commented on whether Bessler was Uberwhiskered, not you.

Jim starts the age-related ill-informed digs. So who is the troll?

So assuming Fischer was frail and weak is faulty logic, unless you have some facts to back it up.

Certainly no more than you and your faulty logic and lack of facts.

Obvious nit-picking by Ed. How do you know that Bessler never built an earlier windmill? Its just your assumption that his last building project was his first windmill. Right?

Ah, a nit-pick when others make logical assumptions, but facts when you make wacky assumptions? Just like the facts of the difficulty in melting lead, right?

You still have a lot to learn, young whipper-snapper Ed.

What does the volume of my knowledge have to do with my age, you the troll?

[jim_mich]

Ah, a nit-pick when others make logical assumptions, but facts when you make wacky assumptions? Just like the facts of the difficulty in melting lead, right?

I said to Bill, "My guess is that as a kid you (Bill) were melting solder over an open fire, and not lead. The common 60/40 tin/lead solder melts at about 361 F° while lead melts at the much higher temperature of about 622 F°."

So Ed, acting like a troll, twists my "guess" into "fact".

What Ed just wrote, was that he made an assumption that Bessler's last windmill was his only windmill. And previously he used that assumption to bash me for using the plural of windmills. And Ed also made the assumption about my opinion about melting lead in Bill's back yard, thus twisting my opinion into what Ed now calls, "fact of melting lead".

Fact: Melting lead requires a temperature of 622°F.
Fact: A typical baking oven has an upper limit of about 500°F to 550°F.
Fact: A typical BBQ grilling temperature is not much more than a backing oven.
Fact: Most melting of lead is done by using a "forge".
Fact: A "forge" is simple some sort of means of blowing air through the fire to make it burn hotter.
Fact: A blow-torch is a type of "forge" because it draws in air to make the flame hotter.
Fact: Often times people think they are melting lead, but are actually melting "solder".
Fact: Solder has a much lower melting temperature, but looks like lead.
Fact: There exist portable "forges", often used by blacksmiths on farms to shoe horses.
Fact: Bessler may have had such a portable forge, and thus no need to go the the blacksmith.
Fact: Bessler melting large lead weights may have required more heat than a simple open-pit fire.
Fact: The easiest way to get the greater heat needed, is to blow air through a fire.
Fact: Blowing air through a fire turns it into a "forge". It's no longer a simple BBQ pit.

The FACT is that melting enough lead for a weight larger than 4 lbs, say a 40 lb weight, would require more than just a backyard BBQ pit type fire. It would require a "forge" where air is blown through the fire to make it burn hotter. I don't know if Bessler owned a small portable forge (I doubt it), or if he had to go to a blacksmith. Its irrelevant.

My point stands that using smaller weights would be easier to mold and easier to handle. Me expressing my doubts about Bill's melting of lead is your problem Ed. Bill probably did melt "something" in his backyard as a kid. I've seen a video of a hunter melting a few used bullets over a campfire and then molding them so as to reload his cartridges. And I've seen a video of someone trying to melt a large quantity of lead wheel weights. He ended up adding a blower to his fire, thus turning it into a "forge". A half-dozen bullets, or maybe Bill melting some toy tin soldiers or whatever as a kid, does not convince me that its easy to melt lead over an ordinary open fire as some members seem to imply. I'm not saying its impossible, but its very unlikely, except in cases where small amounts of lead are melted.

And previously Ralph jumped into the fray by making statement about sealing iron pipes with lead. And yes, I've help seal iron pipes with lead and jute. But in all of my cases, the lead was melted using a torch, which is simply a small portable forge-type arrangement. This reinforcing my contention that to melt lead, most often, some sort of "forge" is used, where the flame is made hotter by increasing the air flow. And I maintain its difficult, but not impossible, to melt lead over a simple open backyard fire.

Knowing all of this, gave me doubts as to the accuracy that the metal melted by Bill was pure lead, rather than solder or tin.

What does the volume of my knowledge have to do with my age

Eventually you will understand.

Jim starts the age-related ill-informed digs. So who is the troll?

No, Ed started it even earlier by the beard statements. And Bill about Fischer being old and weak at age 65. Both are age-insensitive comments.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. So Ed, stop bashing me about it, OK?

[ovyyus]

So defensive.

All I suggested was that Fischer's age and health should be considered when he wrote about his difficulty handling Bessler's big Kassel wheel. I know some 65 year old's who are healthy and strong, and some who are frail and weak. Thus Fischer's age and strength is a relevant and logical question to ask. Perhaps less so for someone who believes that Bessler's wheel was more heavy and more powerful than it actually was.

[Ed]

What does the volume of my knowledge have to do with my age

Eventually you will understand.

But you don't, since I was illustrating your own sentiment.

Jim starts the age-related ill-informed digs. So who is the troll?

No, Ed started it even earlier by the beard statements. And Bill about Fischer being old and weak at age 65. Both are age-insensitive comments.

No Jim, you started it by defensively addressing Bill as an "ill-informed young person" and generalizing that young people have "a warped perspective towards old people".

You completely missed the point about assumptions. You tell people they are making assumptions, and then proceed to be the King of Assumptions. ASSumptions like Bill is ignorant or lying about what he melted as a kid.

And you do try to present many of your opinions as facts, so stop acting like a "bashed" garden gnome.

[Furcurequs]

dwayne wow the more we learn ,the less we know. . :-(

Isn't that the truth? ;)

When we start looking more closely we sometimes see that things aren't quite what they may first seem.

[rasselasss]

I would say,the defining factor for the total weight of the wheel at Kassel,if i'm correct the iron axle(wrapped in shaped planks to make 8 inches) was 1 inch in diameter with a 6 foot span between the bearings,it would be asking a lot if the total weight was 6-10 cwt.,of the shaft and the bearings even if turning slowly,surely it would "bow"and with the banging etc.create a large amount of wear and friction to the bearings and housings..and not last for the number of days stated.....must have been "light"...J.M.O......to add i would say the "blacksmith"made the shaft when he cast the weights...LOL.