Why only four pounds?

[spinner361]

Because using more than a four pound weight would require its counter balance to be so heavy that its size becomes a problem. The axle diameter would have to increase for durability. Then the bearings. Then all of the moving parts. Then the overall wheel. There needs to be room for the motion, afterall. In addition, he wanted to transfer the wheel's location during the demo, lifted by human beings. Twelve feet was a big enough diameter and four pound weights were heavy enough to demonstrate that a useful amount of energy was indeed created, but also small enough and light enough to be transferred from one set of supports to another. He had to remove the weights to make transferring the location of the wheel possible, and he also knew that he could show the weights to observers because their small mass leads to more confusion than conclusion. The weights are necessary to sustain the rotation, yet they do not drive the rotation. Without the weights there is no rotation. With the weights it is extremely difficult to stay still once set into rotation, which can be achieved by exceeding the minimum threshold with a very slight amount of outside input such as a push with two fingers.

[Furcurequs]

I attached a section of the following youtube video that I edited so it would show the scene in both forward and reverse. It is of a fellow really putting his weight into spinning the "Big Wheel" on The Price is Right television game show.

The wheel is probably somewhere between 8 and 10 feet in diameter and supposedly has 20 sections. Based upon the 30 frames per second frame rate, from looking at individual frames it seems at the maximum speed one section of the wheel passes the arrow every 0.1 second (3 frames each). Rim speed here is probably, then, a little slower than Bessler's and, of course, the wheel is a bit smaller.

...just to maybe help us get a feel for things.


"Price Is Right wheel spin fail"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfrTT7SbH_Ijlh

[jim_mich]

There have been comments about Bessler's wheel being "light-weight" and not as heavy as I suggest. As a reference to a wheel that's NOT "light-weight" I present the following...

I found a typical freight-wagon wheel for sale on an auction website, where they presented three very good quality pictures of the wheel. I pasted the three pictures into one picture. Then increased the scale using Paint to 300% so that the wheel filled my computer screen. I then used a tape measure and found that the wheel OD on the screen measured about 10.75 inches. From this I calculated a scale factor of about 13.4. So 10.75 × 13.4 = 144.05, which seemed close enough to a 144 inch (12 ft) wheel OD.

I then set about to scale-measuring the whole wheel. I ignored the iron rim, which reduced the wheel OD to about 140.75 inches. I concluded that was close enough, all things considered. The wheel width came in at 22.5 inches, a little wider than Bessler's 18 inch wide wheel, but not by much.

So, with a 12 foot wheel, built just like the one in the photo, the wheel rim mass would be about 47,978 cu/inch (1391 lbs). The spokes would be about 14165 cu/inch total for the 12 of them (411 lbs). The hub would be about 45,090 cu/inch, (1308 lbs). This come to a total 107233 cu/inch volume of wood.

If the wood was good strong European white oak (0.029 lb/cu/inch) then such a massive strong 12 foot freight wagon type wheel would weigh a total of about 3110 lbs.

My point being that a Bessler wheel, empty without any internal weights, weighing say 1000 lbs, would be considered a "light-weight" wheel. A wheel weighing 200 or 300 lbs would be very light-weight and even bordering on flimsy.

I suggest people design a 12 ft wheel "on paper" using any reasonable dimensions that would make your wheel strong enough to do its job. Then calculate the volume of wood required. Then figure out the weight of such a wheel. The weight of a 12 foot wheel might surprise you. A hands-on builder will understand what I'm getting at. An armchair-type guy might not understand.

Cheers,


PS. If I had included the iron rim ring, it would have added another 4600 lbs to the 12 ft wheel.

[rlortie]

jim_mich,

As a hands-on builder I do understand what your getting at. I agree that the armchair-type guy might not comprehend the weight of a 12 foot (3.6576 m) wheel.

I do not agree using the depicted wheel you use as a base sample. The wheel shown is obviously over built for use on a Prairie Schooner, and is likely more inline with a wheel meant for a Conestoga freight wagon. Such wheels measured up to 7.2 feet (2.19456 m) in diameter.

It is my opinion that Bessler's fabricating method would have been much lighter with emphasizes on the axle, not the spokes and rim. Did he not state to the effect that his wheel "had no rim like a wheel'? Did not the witnesses lead one to depict a drum, covered with veneer on the early models and canvas on the later.

As a builder it is typical for me to use MDF for disks on wheels measuring up to four feet (1.219 m) diameter. designs over four feet, I use 1/8" (0.3175 cm) tempered hardboard laminated with seaming joints alternating. I then remove pie shaped sections radiating from the axis, removing mass, making for a spokes.

Depending upon design I sometimes "stiff-Back" these spoke sections with dimensional Ponderosa pine, a soft wood. I shy away from southern yellow pines which are denser and pitchier, having widely different characteristics and uses.

My larger wheels are fabricated in line with aircraft structural engineering, relying on the outer skin for modular elasticity, shear and diaphragm integrity.

Ralph

[jim_mich]

I do not agree using the depicted wheel you use as a base sample. The wheel shown is obviously over built for use on a Prairie Schooner, and is likely more inline with a wheel meant for a Conestoga freight wagon. -snip-

It is my opinion that Bessler's fabricating method would have been much lighter ...

So Ralph, you agree with me that this wheel that I depicted is NOT "light-weight", right? That was my point. That was my point!!!

A heavy 12 ft wheel could be up in the range of 3000+ lbs without any iron rim. (Bessler said his wheel was without a rim. I take this to mean without the customary iron-ring rim.) If it had a typical iron rim, then the weight of a 12 ft wheel could easily top 6000 or 7000 lbs. This is why Bessler made his wheels without an iron rim.

So Ralph, what is the weight of your typical little 4 ft wheels?

If you scale up a wheel from 4 foot to 12 foot, then it increases 3 times in height, 3 times in width, and 3 times in thickness. That's is 27 times the mass of your little 4 ft wheel. Suppose your little 4 ft wheel weighed in at 50 lbs? Then a comparable 12 ft wheel would weigh 1350 lbs.

I'm simply trying to get people to think more logically, rather than "shoot from the hip" about wheel weight. After you get real wheel building experience under your belt, like Ralph and I and a number of others, then you get a much more realistic "feel" for wheels.

The fluid-wheel that I built last winter was 4-1/2 foot diameter and weighed 20 lbs empty (100% PVC piping) and 50 lbs when filled with water. If scaled up to 12 ft, then its weight would be 380 lbs empty and 950 lbs when full of water. Or about 1110 if I bothered to use salt water.

Witnesses that said his wheel was very light, were probably comparing it to a conventional wagon wheel, as I've done here to make my point.

My main point is that assuming a very light wheel weight of 200 to 400 lbs does not make much sense when you look at all the facts.

[rlortie]

Jim,

I cannot give you the weight of any previous built POP's, I did not bother to set them on the bathroom scales.

However, I have recently purchased three certified scales in ranges from grams to 300 lbs.

My current build will be weighed in increments and material usage, giving us a total dry weight, (tare), gross weight, and curb weight which includes roll-away platform and stanchions. It is six feet (1.8288 m) in diameter, 1/2 the size of Bessler's.

You are familiar with PVC density and weight, this machine will contain approximately 38 feet (11.5824 m) of 4.25" (10.79 cm) OD pipe. Once filled, I do not expect it to be considered "light"

The roll-way platform it will sit on utilizes four 1,000 pound (rated) movers dollies with a total of 16 3" (7.62 cm) castors and is forklift capable.

While you are trying to make a point about wheel weight, consider Bessler's coopered six or 8 inch axle made out of likely oak. It in itself would weigh a healthy sum.

Ralph

[rasselasss]

I can't go with that statement Jim Mich,because you and Riotie's "realistic"experience amounts to "zilch",whether you admit to that or not as can be seen "its a fact"...failed end product .....what we are dealing with here is a hidden from view mech...,statements from witness's which are unverifable regarding weights etc.everything you wrote is your guess based on what you assume ie.it could be a hollow drum as Riortie stated,with no spokes,backplate only.....the fact is none of us know,what Bessler'wheel contained or how it was fabricated........i would'nt dream of a comparision of a "wagon wheel" to Bessler's wheel...

[rlortie]

rasselass,

You are correct! You cannot compare what you do not know to a wagon wheel and come up with objective facts. Such information in my opinion is for armchair theorists and means diddly squat to a builder!

I tried explaining this in an etiquette way, but what the hell!

Ralph

[rasselasss]

I went to the Gym this morning and did this simple test...i put 70lbs on a weights bar,covered the weights with towels and asked three friends(weighttrainers)to lift to waist level and guess the weight,i then asked three other guys(keep fit treadmill/rower m/c)to do the same.....result the stronger weight lifters said.....(all different estimates )40-60 lbs......the keep fit guys (all different estimates)80-100 lbs.......it does'nt really prove anything but by not knowing and different personal strengths guessing a weight is difficult .....nonetheless i found it interesting.....to conclude they did the same test with me putting 130 lb.on the bar....i guessed 150-170 lbs.....

[jim_mich]

rasselasss, what is this "...failed end product ..." that you write about??

[rasselasss]

Apologies Jim Mich,i did'nt realise you had succeeded in a P.M. wheel....the end product.....anything else is failure..

[Furcurequs]

So, who is the armchair theorizer? ...lol

Hey, some of us build even if we have to use toothpicks.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik3qXxEUNnc

ETA: Actually, one of my builds looks like this if you just consider the "wheel" part without the seats. Oh, and I happened to use one more spoke. I used 1/4" square lengths of poplar wood for those and for the pieces connecting the two sides.

[Grimer]

I thought to myself. "that looks rather dangerous."

Sure enough, when I clicked on the link it was labelled:

THE MOST DANGEROUS FERRIS WHEEL IN THE WORLD

I love the human hamster cage at the centre being used to drive the wheel.
Shows how people can use their ingenuity to make a living even in the most impoverished circumstances.

[Furcurequs]

When it came to grabbing a frame from the video to post, it was kind of a toss up between the hamster guys and the fellow dangling from a seat by his arms. You can see which one I went with, though.

[cloud camper]

Apologies Jim Mich,i did'nt realise you had succeeded in a P.M. wheel....the end product.....anything else is failure..

Rass - have you been visiting other planets?

Dear Leader has been regularly announcing runners as long as anyone can remember!

Here is one from 9 yrs ago: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ght=eureka

They would all be furiously clanking away as we speak except for the miscreant scientific wag who came up with the lame idea of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_force (s)!