Why only four pounds?

[Furcurequs]

Hey Ralph,

However, I have recently purchased three certified scales in ranges from grams to 300 lbs.

Cool.

I've been looking at some small electronic scales on ebay that can be purchased direct from China. Lots of them are disguised as iphones and stuff, too. Wonder why anyone would want that? ...lol

Anyway, I kind of want one just for the "neat" factor alone, but since I'm currently using stacks of pennies in my builds, which should all be right at 2.50 grams each, I can't really justify buying one.

...well, YET!

While you are trying to make a point about wheel weight, consider Bessler's coopered six or 8 inch axle made out of likely oak. It in itself would weigh a healthy sum.

As far as rotational behavior of a spinning flywheel, mass near the center doesn't affect it nearly as much as mass near the rim. That's why I, out of curiosity, did my depleted uranium calculation.

A 2.1 foot diameter 18 inch thick cylinder of uranium weighing around 6400 pounds at the center of the 12 foot diameter wheel would apparently behave the same rotationally speaking (well, if we could ignore the greater bearing friction, of course) as just 100 pounds at the rim. So, those eyewitness accounts about stopping and starting the wheel don't necessarily tell us much about the total weight, but they do tell us a lot about how much of the mass could be near the rim.

It can certainly be beefy near the axle, if that is needed due to the large width of the axle and to prevent its flexing.

Dwayne

[Furcurequs]

It is my opinion that Bessler's fabricating method would have been much lighter with emphasizes on the axle, not the spokes and rim. Did he not state to the effect that his wheel "had no rim like a wheel'? Did not the witnesses lead one to depict a drum, covered with veneer on the early models and canvas on the later.

That is my opinion, too, which after doing my calculations actually seems to be backed up by the other eyewitness accounts, also, concerning the start, stop and power output tests.

The descriptions of Fischer and Gravesande - like when Gravesande spoke of the wheel being "very light" - were obviously concerning the apparent ease with which they could "spin" the wheel - not CARRY it.

...and so my calculations concerning the moment of inertia of the wheel addresses that sort of "lightness" specifically.

As a builder it is typical for me to use MDF for disks on wheels measuring up to four feet (1.219 m) diameter. designs over four feet, I use 1/8" (0.3175 cm) tempered hardboard laminated with seaming joints alternating. I then remove pie shaped sections radiating from the axis, removing mass, making for a spokes.

Depending upon design I sometimes "stiff-Back" these spoke sections with dimensional Ponderosa pine, a soft wood. I shy away from southern yellow pines which are denser and pitchier, having widely different characteristics and uses.

Since I don't have much in the way of power tools, I start with precut 1/4" square "rods" of poplar wood that I cut to length for spokes using just a hacksaw for my, obviously, smaller builds, and I then add either cross bracing like with a Ferris wheel or use flat laminated rims around the circumference. So, instead of having to cut MDF board, I can cut semicircles out of poster board and overlap them and layer them with tongue depressors - all of which I can cut with sewing SCISSORS and then just glue together. My builds are thus very lightweight - but not at all "flimsy" for the desired purpose.

My larger wheels are fabricated in line with aircraft structural engineering, relying on the outer skin for modular elasticity, shear and diaphragm integrity.

...and so some of us seem to know that we don't really need solid wings. ;)

Dwayne

[Furcurequs]

... (Bessler said his wheel was without a rim. I take this to mean without the customary iron-ring rim.) ...

I personally take it to mean that a round rim wasn't even necessary but that he had used one to just make a nice round enclosure in which to hide the working mechanism(s).

Dwayne

[jim_mich]

cloud camper attacks me again, this time with outright lies. So who is the bully?

[jim_mich]

Dwayne, obviously Bessler's wheel had a wooden rim. Bessler was comparing his wheel to the common wagon or carriage wheel of his time, which was familiar to everyone. Bessler said his wheel was constructed in like manner, except without the rim. He didn't need to add the words "iron" because the rim of the wheel was understood to mean the iron rim that took the brunt of wear and tear when rolling down the road.

[rlortie]

Jim,

If you believe in the depicted drawings the Kassel wheel looks to have the same material as the sides, If I recall correctly this is canvas, it appears that the side and rim material is held in place with what reminds me of over-sized embroidery hoops!

As for the Merseburg wheel it looks to be steam bent wood with parallel grain attached with upholstery tacks.

The above statements are drawn from my imagination of what I see! I am not interested in debating alleged drawings for there authenticity or the issue.

Ralph

[jim_mich]

About the rim...

Man sieht ein Rad, und auch kein Rad,
Weils Felgen und auch keine hat.

Jim_Mich translated as:

You witness a wheel, plus also not wheel,
Because wheel_rim plus also no have.

The "felgen" was the metal rim of a wheel. Today the felgen is the metal wheel rim upon which is mounted the rubber tire.

Bessler was simply writing that you witness/see his wheel, but its not actually a wheel in the conventional sense, because it has no wheel-rim, the metal part of a wheel that takes all the wear and tear when a wheel rolls along the ground. Bessler's wheel was made without any metal (felgen) wheel-rim.

[Furcurequs]

I guess I better let everyone know that my own wheel isn't like a normal common modern wheel, then. It doesn't have a tire. (...and surely everyone understands I mean a "rubber" tire.) ;)




http://s2.hubimg.com/u/1576089_f520.jpg


http://wildsurgg.hubpages.com/hub/WHAT- ... BOUT-TIRES

Dwayne

[rlortie]

Dwayne,

After reading you above posts quoting me, and learning of your build limitations, I am interested.

If you were to ignore your signature "I don't believe in conspiracies!
I prefer working alone", collaborated with a builder and stuck to your aptitude for math, do you not believe that maybe both with gain?

When I collaborate over a design, I prefer to have one portray the pessimist, while the other the optimist. There are times when assistance in pencil pushing mathematics could reduce the the debate time!

If were are ever going to solve the energy problem becoming another "Microsoft" or a Steve Jobs "Apple" we have to start somewhere!

Think about it!

Ralph

[jim_mich]

I rode on that giant "US Royal Tire" at the New York World's Fair in 1965.

The Giant Tire was first created as a Ferris wheel for the 1964 New York World's Fair and was originally emblazoned "U S ROYAL TIRES". Designed by Shreve, Lamb & Harmon, the same architectural firm that designed the Empire State Building, it carried over 2 million people, including prominent passengers such as Jacqueline Kennedy, Telly Savalas, and the Shah of Iran. It had 24 barrel-shaped gondolas, each carrying up to 4 people, and could carry up to 96 passengers. It was driven by a 100 hp engine.

When the fair ended in 1965, the tire was disassembled and shipped by rail to Detroit, where it was reassembled as a static display without its passenger gondolas outside a Uniroyal sales office. Later, the sales office moved but the tire remained, becoming an icon of Detroit's industrial power. Today it still stands tall as a symbol of Uniroyal's heritage and a Detroit landmark.

I've also driven past it many times on I-94.

[Furcurequs]

I know all that stuff, Jim.

...just kidding. I don't want you to think I'm a MIB keeping tabs on you.

Those are a couple of interesting coincidences, though. I posted a picture of a Ferris wheel and then an oversized car wheel and then I find out the car wheel used to be a Ferris wheel and even one that you rode on!

There's your problem right there. In your formative years you learned that a big stationary spinning wheel needed tread on it.

;)

Speaking of World Fairs, during the summer of 1982 I was in college right next to the one in Knoxville, Tennessee. I may have only actually gone to it once or twice, however.

[Furcurequs]

Dwayne,

After reading you above posts quoting me, and learning of your build limitations, I am interested.

If you were to ignore your signature "I don't believe in conspiracies!
I prefer working alone", collaborated with a builder and stuck to your aptitude for math, do you not believe that maybe both with gain?

When I collaborate over a design, I prefer to have one portray the pessimist, while the other the optimist. There are times when assistance in pencil pushing mathematics could reduce the the debate time!

If were are ever going to solve the energy problem becoming another "Microsoft" or a Steve Jobs "Apple" we have to start somewhere!

Think about it!

Ralph

Hey! Just because I build with poster board and glue, that doesn't mean I'm not a real builder!

;) ...lol

First of all, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I kind of hit my posting limit yesterday (due to discomfort) before I could get around to responding.

As far as my build methods, I think they may actually be beneficial to me when it comes to designing a proof of principle device. I'm forcing myself to think of ways to test the basic principles I'm exploring as simply and inexpensively as possible, which could later perhaps even make it easier for others to replicate should I ultimately prove to be successful.

You mentioned my math aptitude. Well, maybe somewhat ironically, I have hardly used any math at all when it comes to my own experimental builds. I maybe used some simple math to lay out my spokes and position a few things in a couple of designs, but other than that, I've not really used any.

I do think a lot about the basic physics principles, however. My ideas involve a combination of things that are actually taught in school but don't seem to be taught together, so perhaps others haven't really thought to put them together.

...and I also think that I might be able to see some results in my experiments without having to actually do the math. If I were to see positive results, I would then try to mathematically model the design so as to maximize power output, however. ...or if I didn't see positive results, I would try to do the math before just throwing in the towel.

Unfortunately, when it comes to my creative ideas, I really am pretty much a loner. I don't have a problem collaborating with others on others' things or group things, but I just feel that some things have to be all my own.

It works that way with my music, too, for example. I can "jam" with others and we can come up with things together and that can be an enjoyable experience. ...if, of course, things are clicking and the others are creative too.

...but once I've had an idea of my own apart from the group, I just have a desire - maybe a need - to do it all myself without anyone else's contributions, which can be both a blessing and a curse, I guess. Sometimes in the group environment when it's just not coming together, I may still feel inspired and want to just run off and go it alone from there, even.

So, what I guess I'm saying, when it comes to my own current ideas, it's like I've started a race that I feel I, win or lose, must now finish on my own. After all the effort I've put forth so far, it just wouldn't feel right to have someone now helping me across the finish line. ...even if I have to crawl that last few feet.

Of course, though, if my current ideas concerning a potentially gravity powered device just don't pan out, it's back to the starting line.

I loved working in the labs of IBM collaborating with others during my college days, but I also had an extreme desire to do my own things, too, however. There was this one fellow there who had a project all his own, and so he was sort of doing what I really wanted to do.

He said he had to prove himself for over 30 years there, however, before they let him explore his own ideas and that he still had to try to justify what he was doing every few months to those in management.

Seeing that and hearing those who would complain about what they had "wished" they had done before having started a family and having had too many responsibilities to leave the implied safety of corporate life, I chose to leave it early on.

Anyway, maybe if my current ideas don't pan out...

Can you machine ferrite by any chance? I could use some help with that.

Dwayne

[jim_mich]

Can you machine ferrite by any chance? I could use some help with that.

Machine ferrite like you would any other ceramic or stone material. You grind it, using carbide or preferably diamond cutting wheels.

[Furcurequs]

Thanks for trying to be helpful. I know that's how it's done, though. I was actually asking if Ralph could do it for me, however.

ETA: Somewhere in the forum is my story about cutting ceramic magnets myself with a Dremel tool and diamond cutting wheels.

[rlortie]

Dwayne,

Yes I remember a short conversation between us regarding machining ferrite magnets. And yes I am experienced, I learned the pitfalls the hard way!

Are you familiar with the plastic stack-able shipping crates or boxes used for commercial milk deliveries? Well if you are, I have three of them full of ferrite speaker magnets, a fourth is partially full of "Rare earth" (Neodymium) magnets.

Ferrite is a chemical compound of ceramic materials with iron oxide as its main component. Yogoro Kato and Takeshi Takei of the Tokyo Institute of Technology invented ferrite in 1930. (Wiki extract)

As Jim states: ferrite can be machined with either carbide or diamond tooling. I suggest doing it as you did, using a Dremel or related portable tooling outside the machine shop area. A liquid coolant to assist in containment is also desirable. If done on a shop lathe or mill, you end up with everything in the shop magnetized with swarf.

Before giving you an aye or nay, I would have to know the extent, size and desired shape fitting your needs.

Maybe a trade; Custom cut ferrite in exchange for some math calculations on a proto design?

Ralph