Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?

[rasselasss]

How could Bessler's wheel be a fraud,we have read many statements condemning his wheels and yet having examined many avenues, ie.a flat coil spring,winding/unwinding to do the work performed as witnessed in "the kassel wheel"...not possible without one side being grounded,a leaf spring in tension(longitudinal.. twisting/untwisting )hidden inside the fabricated axle,but likewise has to be grounded...so apart from hidden outside influence any ideas how he would fraudulantly achieve this...

[Furcurequs]

Hey rasselasss,

If the wheel were hollow, one could suspend a weight from the axle, with the weight hanging from a bearing through which the axle passes, and have a coiled spring pushing against it and the outer shell of the wheel. Something like the following:



This would be somewhat similar to how a kids' "spool racer" works. If the axle of the spool was fixed. the pencil would likely just hang downward as the spool turned in whatever direction.




http://www.kitsapmaker.com/wp-content/u ... 00x225.jpg

http://www.kitsapmaker.com/2011/05/spoo ... -big-kids/



http://www.artistshelpingchildren.org/c ... l-tank.png

http://www.artistshelpingchildren.org/s ... skids.html

Of course, a weight suspended from a rope that is simply wound around the axle should rotate the wheel, too.

Not saying that either of these two methods were how it was done, but it's probably in line with what those who believe Bessler was a fraud are thinking.

Dwayne

[jim_mich]

Such an arrangement has limitations that most people fail to see.

With the weight hanging straight down as you show will cause no spring torque on the wheel.

To gain maximum CW torque, the weight would need to be straight out to the right. And at that point the maximum spring tension would be the same as the weight tension of the pendulum-weight. If the spring tension ever became much stronger, then the weight would flip over the top.

Thus the spring simply acts as a transmitting mechanism for the torque-force of the weight. As the spring tension gets weaker, then the weight drops lower. The spring tension will always match the tension of the "falling" weight.

There are alternative arrangements where the spring doesn't wrap around the wheel axis, and thus the weight-mass of the spring itself is part of the lifted weight-pendulum. But the same limitation is always present. The spring tension is always limited by the back-torque that can be created by lifting the weight off-balance to one side.

Then there is the problem of Bessler's wheels operating either direction. Bessler thought such would prove they were not wound up. But Wagner devised a scheme using wound-up springs that worked either way. But Fischer's description of rotating the wheel slowly without it starting to self-rotate invalidates Wagner claim about how Bessler's wheel worked.

The bottom line is that though springs can store a lot of energy, they need an artificial horizon (a hanging pendulum-weight) to push against. And pushing against the artificial horizon causes it to rotate off to one side. The maximum torque and energy produced in such cases is equal to the gravity energy of the weight lifted to the one side.

[rasselasss]

Thanks Furcurequs,everything "turns"together one side of any type of "spring"device must be stationery (solid)for "winding /unwinding"to take place given the "work"done stated by the witness's,........Dr.Simarack? among others..... say a spring or other method was employed,the usual broad statement without showing or explaining how.....to add Wagner's device his Fusee type coil springs were grounded...really its not as easy as it seems(overlap withJim Mich)

[rasselasss]

Strangely enough the Meresberg Wheel design with the "padlock"would invite sceptisim of a loaded flat coil spring,rewinding of the coil spring taking place when the lifted load being lowered to the ground....

[rlortie]

If the spring is capable of lifting the load, then the dropping load is not heavy enough to rewind the spring???

[Grimer]

I used to wonder how the Bessler Wheel could work without a ground reaction such as provided with the Gravity Pulse Motor. But then I realised (thanks to something that Triplock came up with) that one can use an inertia reaction.

[rasselasss]

Totally agree Riortie,a "spring"solution suggested by many but without explanation,the "power"of the wheel to do the work described by witness's (kassel)would be no easy task.....i also looked tried to visualise the scene as depicted...if he were an "illusionist"what would distract our attention...ie.the inverted pendulums swishing at each end of the axle,the noise of the wheel ,the waterscrew clattering,with water splashing about,IF he was hiding something he would have been a master illusionist (the lifting of axle and assembly etc.),to state fraud in my book ,the explanation would have to be not only believable but sustainable to do the work described....i can't see an inertia wound spring being able to perform this work..

[Furcurequs]

The point of my simple diagrams was that even with a conventional source of stored energy, you could make both the wheel and and the axle turn in the way that it did in Bessler's wheels without much problem. If I were to waste my own energy in trying to design a fraudulent device, though, I could certainly do a better job than depicted in my drawings, of course.

I've not been able to find pictures online of very large spiral springs, but if I could have one, I would actually attach it to near the top of the rod supporting the suspended weight. The weight and long rod, then, would provide a very large leverage so that the forces on my wound spring could be quite large without really having to worry much about the actual lifting of the weight itself when the rod did move from vertical when the spring was wound tight. As the spring unwound, then, there wouldn't be much motion on the side that's anchored to the virtual ground. Most of the motion would be on the end that's driving the wheel.

Since under the load tests, Bessler's wheel seemed to only provide about 40 foot-pounds of torque, I would probably even have to put some gears inside of it to match the ouput - and maybe even add some sort of speed governor or escapement to limit the speed and power output.

It would be an interesting exercise in its own right, I guess.

The important question of course, though, is simply "could conventional power sources at that time explain the output during the duration tests?"

Dwayne

[johannesbender]

I find it strange that people claimed they could
reproduce what bessler displayed with his wheels

it seems like none has stepped forward at that
time to bear the burden of proof , was it just wagner that made such an attempt ? even though what he presented seems to be only an
"arm chair theorists design" , that is at least one
individual who had put something forward .

then we had those " levered through the pillers" accusations ,all those guys provided were mere
speculative drawings .

it seems that , even though there were so many
people trying to "catch the fraudulent concept" in bessler's wheel , that none actually had anything
worthy of even being mentioned .

so if you discovered how he portrayed such a fraud , it begs to argue that you should be smarter than those guys haha.

well I have thought about how he could have done it as a fraudulent device , I have yet to conceive a method to reproduce the tests ..

maby there were a glitch in the "matrix simulation" of our proposed "simulated world" some people propose haha lol.

jb

[murilo]

Since you all are soooooo smart upon wheels:::::

http://sharkwheel.com/shark-tech/

B)

[rasselasss]

In the link below,the sketch on the left side,"magnify to 600%"and pay particular attention to.....n...p....and c ......

[rasselasss]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bes ... tedIndex=0

[daxwc]

Ralph:

If the spring is capable of lifting the load, then the dropping load is not heavy enough to rewind the spring???

I think Fletcher had it right in this thread and why the axle needed to be 8" as to provide friction to lower it like a friction rope cathead and the wheel just continued going in the same direction.



http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... head#45550

[daxwc]

Here is website that sells a winch with this concept.
http://www.gmesupply.com/winches/capstan-hoists