Gaining Force

[Fletcher]

Also, down at the bottom is a curious box (light blue), as if a weight suspended by strings (clock weight?)

On a previous thread, some time ago, Michael discusses this "box". With the benefit of a reasonable blow up you can in fact see that it is a cut away or viewing hole which shows the wheel rim thru it. In other words it is there to show there is no trickery in the form of hanging weights & chains etc.

[Jonathan]

Jtolan, I think you need to read that quote a little more carefully. It says, with "NOT", that the prinicple is not from outside. The light blue box is a hole as they said, in the left portion it is labeled 18, and the commentary with the woodcut says that 18 is a hole for the rope 16 to go through. I don't think there ever were any pendula, I think they were depicted to make the picture more interesting, and to help people visualize all the ways the device could be useful. They may also've be a clue to the innards.
As for the asymmetrical swing, you needn't do the math:
Pendulum Asymmetry

[ovyyus]

jtcolon, I think you are taking the specific words in the translation interpretation too literally. If no witness ever described attached pendulums in the many public tests and demonstrations, then perhaps Bessler's artist licence was just a suggestion for a speed governor afterall?

I've included the other two pendulum depictions that aren't normally raised in conversation. Did I say 'raised'? - I meant 'brought up'.

[Ed]

Did I say 'raised'? - I meant 'brought up'

lmao!

[jtolan]

here's a torque plot on a crank moving a pendulum (much like in the above drawings) I like it!! Its very asymmetric and tomorrow, if I have a chance, I'll see if I can pair it and superimpose it on a torque profile from one of the wheels I analyzed a while back. It might be nothing but its sure fun to try :)

by the way, thanks for that link Jonathan, you're full of good links LOL :)

also guys, I think that hole at the bottom, is not for showing there is nothing hiding, since there is plenty of room around the cutout for cables etc. I belive it is more logical to suggest that it is a hole for inserting a piece of wood and bringing the wheel to a stop with friction. (so that a person won't have to put up with being jerked off the floor) Just my opinion.

also, why are the headings on the drawings in Latin? Where do they come from anyway? Shouldn't they be in German?

[jtolan]

guys, I tried something else in WM2D and it "seems" to turn on and on and on....

have a look at the diagram.

Here's the logic that induced me to try this. If swinging weights have more force why not put them to the test, so I constructed a balanced arrangement with a pendulum swinging in place (held by a spring, notice everything is balanced) makes sense that it should have a higher pull down due to the angular acceleration. But.... in the process, I discovered two surprising things.

1) It turns the other way, meaning the swinging weight is LIGHTER going up

2) It keeps on turning over and over( seems to regauge or undergo some phase shift in the pendulum at about 5 o'clock) very very interesting.

I think I'm getting excited again, somebody hold me down so I don' t jump up and hurt my head. LOL

[jtolan]

guys I haven't seen any postings from anybody yet. Are you reading my last post? Maybe I haven't been clear about this. Hopefully this post will flag the thread for some attention.

I managed to simulate in WM2D a PERPETUAL "WHEEL" THAT TURNS AT LEAST 8 TIMES OR MORE!!!!

I can let it do more turns but I can see it just keeps on going and going and going. I want to see if other people can replicate it. Remember, the weights and the whole construction must be constructed balanced, and the weight with the spring is given an initial velocity towards the spring of 1 m/s (or more) to start the vibrations. I've tried it with this initial velocity towards the center and also away from it (negative number), and it seems that if it goes away it starts rotating counter-clockwise then stops and reverses direction and then just keeps on going and going CLOCKWISE only. Has anybody else built or played around with something like this before?

[Jonathan]

Did you enable friction?

[amateur]

I tried to duplicate it, but hadn't caught (if you mentioned it) how you started it (vibrating the spring one.) My first attempt keeled, but I can try again trying to start it in the fashion you mentioned.

What entries exactly are you modifying and where, with what values, to produce the initial velocity?

Jonathan mentioned friction. You might try enabling wind resistance (menu item under World), or observing if it is gaining angular momentum (menu item under Measure) or not.

FWIW, I have several WM creations that go and go, and Rounder (?) had one as well - but none of them seem to REgain anything that is lost, but merely continue from their initiating force and lack of friction.

You may want to try the dump script found in the saving WM2D assemblies thread and post the results of it - it would at least (hopefully) give a starting point - don't know if initial velocity is currently saved or not.

[Wheeler]

I think amateur is correct,
wind resistance has to be on for true tests
Ken advised me on this for the pendulum

[jtolan]

no I have not included friction.

the mechanism is started by giving the left ball a Vx component of velocity. It is stated from a "balanced" position. (balls and center of rotation on a horizontal line) If its not balanced then there is no mystery in why it would go on and on when there is no friction. Its just a wheel that rotates with no friction when its being given a push, but if its balanced and the center of mass of the ball passes through the pivot point its a bit different. Also, it seems that it wants to go one direction only.

By the way, I simulated another wheel that turned IN THE PRESENCE OF FRICTION (different construction then here). Not fast, just inched its way along, very little momentum gain but it kept going. Its something I posted before with levers and springs much like what Ken is trying out.

[graham]

I think amateur is correct,
wind resistance has to be on for true tests
Ken advised me on this for the pendulum

Just a thought. If the whole mechanism is enclosed in a covered drum like JB's wheel then you will most likely have a rotating air mass inside the drum when it gets up to speed.
Does this help us to "understand" ??

Graham

[ken_behrendt]

In the design that I am pursuing for Bessler's one directional wheels, there would only be 11 sources of friction / drag. They would be the 8 lever pivots, the two axle pivots, and the aerodynamic drag of the drum itself.

I feel that one can, for all practical purposes, in WM2D models of this design, disregard friction. Even in a physical model, well lubricated pivots would reduce friction to almost zero. The only other possible problem would be wind resistance or aerodynamic drag, but for low velocity rotation even this is neglible.

It's quite interesting to me to note that Bessler CHOSE to give his wheels a CIRCULAR circumference. From what I now know about the construction details of his wheels, it would actually have been easier, from a construction point of view, to make the weight containing drum OCTAGONAL in shape. I believe he went to the extra effort of "rounding out" the octagonal drums with warped boards between their vertices for two reasons: 1.) to hide the fact that it used 8 weights arranged at 45 deg. angular intervals around the axle, and 2.) to reduce the wind resistance as the drum rotated.

I also believe that when one has found the correct design that Bessler used, it will generate more than enough torque to overcome any minor sources of friction/drag in its construction as well as any minor amount of imbalance.

ken

[ovyyus]

It's quite interesting to me to note that Bessler CHOSE to give his wheels a CIRCULAR circumference...

It might also have been a requirement, eg; if the weights were required to move around the circumference of the wheel (angular).

[jim_mich]

I think there is a reason for the outer edge of the wheel to be round. That reason will become obvious.