Priority Claim
Moderator: scott
re: Priority Claim
Depends what you call energy loss. If the inertia increases x 4, the KE remaining the same will give you rotational speed / 2. You cannot affect inertia without affecting rotational speed.One could use a bistable body such as a Hoberman Sphere to change the inertia of the yo-yo drastically without incurring a significant energy loss.
"Ersatz" come from the German ersetzen or ersetzt. It means "replace" or "replacement".
Previously, centrifugal force has been discussed as being "ersatz gravity", in other words a substitute gravity force in such places as rotating space stations or inside PM wheels.
The term "ersatz energy" does not seem to be proper English to me. Such would be a fake or substitute for real energy.
Previously, centrifugal force has been discussed as being "ersatz gravity", in other words a substitute gravity force in such places as rotating space stations or inside PM wheels.
The term "ersatz energy" does not seem to be proper English to me. Such would be a fake or substitute for real energy.
re: Priority Claim
Energy and momentum are both be conservative. Sure seems like one of them isn't.
What goes around, comes around.
re: Priority Claim
Love the above two posts!
Jim states:
Dax,
How can you consider 'energy' conservative, can you name any form of energy that does not provide heat when utilized? May it be solar, combustible, chemical, electric or bio. Bessler in AP mentions about what goes through your body, producing energy and heat. You get cold you shiver, working your muscles providing heat to maintain body temperature.
Ralph
Jim states:
Yet he has been claiming for years that Cf or ersatz gravity will supply the energy to sustain a wheel."ersatz energy" does not seem to be proper English to me. Such would be a fake or substitute for real energy.
Dax,
How can you consider 'energy' conservative, can you name any form of energy that does not provide heat when utilized? May it be solar, combustible, chemical, electric or bio. Bessler in AP mentions about what goes through your body, producing energy and heat. You get cold you shiver, working your muscles providing heat to maintain body temperature.
Ralph
re: Priority Claim
Nope.Ralph wrote:...can you name any form of energy that does not provide heat when utilized?
Can you name any form of heat that is not created by some form of heat?
Re: re: Priority Claim
Oops!ovyyus wrote:Nope.Ralph wrote:...can you name any form of energy that does not provide heat when utilized?
Can you name any form of heat that is not created by some form of heat?
I should have read the question. :-(
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
If you can have Newtonian potential energy then you can have Ersatz potential energy.jim_mich wrote:"Ersatz" come from the German ersetzen or ersetzt. It means "replace" or "replacement".
Previously, centrifugal force has been discussed as being "ersatz gravity", in other words a substitute gravity force in such places as rotating space stations or inside PM wheels.
The term "ersatz energy" does not seem to be proper English to me. Such would be a fake or substitute for real energy.
A man in a space ship who lifts a mass from the spaceship floor to a table creates Ersatz gravity potential energy. If it falls to the floor it creates Ersatz Kinetic energy in his rotating frame of reference.
It's all a question of being able to handle different frames of reference, difficult I know but one gets used to it.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
Re: re: Priority Claim
You can if the KE does not remain the same and the difference comes from the difference in strain energy of the structure, the difference in energy between the two bistable states.Tarsier79 wrote:Depends what you call energy loss. If the inertia increases x 4, the KE remaining the same will give you rotational speed / 2. You cannot affect inertia without affecting rotational speed.One could use a bistable body such as a Hoberman Sphere to change the inertia of the yo-yo drastically without incurring a significant energy loss.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
Kinetic energy is kinetic energy, regardless of its origin. There is no such thing as "ersatz energy", because that would mean a substitute for real energy. Energy is energy. The source of the energy makes no difference. There is no need to add "ersatz" as a descriptor.
But then you Brits often talk funny. :)}
But then you Brits often talk funny. :)}
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cloud camper
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Frank is correct here.Grimer wrote:If you can have Newtonian potential energy then you can have Ersatz potential energy.jim_mich wrote:"Ersatz" come from the German ersetzen or ersetzt. It means "replace" or "replacement".
Previously, centrifugal force has been discussed as being "ersatz gravity", in other words a substitute gravity force in such places as rotating space stations or inside PM wheels.
The term "ersatz energy" does not seem to be proper English to me. Such would be a fake or substitute for real energy.
A man in a space ship who lifts a mass from the spaceship floor to a table creates Ersatz gravity potential energy. If it falls to the floor it creates Ersatz Kinetic energy in his rotating frame of reference.
It's all a question of being able to handle different frames of reference, difficult I know but one gets used to it.
We can continue to add "internal" energy within the rotating system by expending muscle energy to raise objects, adding only to the "internal" system energy.
Unfortunately, none of this newly added internal energy can effect the total angular momentum of the rotating system. System rpm will increase but only because the radius of gyration of the system is being decreased.
Work has been done "raising" internal objects against CF creating more internal artificial GPE that can be extracted later but none of this work translates to adding angular momentum to the rotating system.
The only way angular momentum can be added to the system is to create a mechanical connection to the exterior inertial (non rotating) reference frame and then use this connection to "pump" the system using internal muscle energy (as in Frank's example).
Last edited by cloud camper on Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not so.jim_mich wrote:You must have mistyped. "Kinetic Energy" is dependent on you frame of reference. You can never say that a body contains a specific amount of KE. On the other hand, a body will contain a specific value of thermal energy or chemical energy or electrical energy, etc.
Ultimately all energy is motion energy (as Leibniz realised). This is obvious in the case of heat, less obvious in more esoteric forms of energy. Heat is merely motion on a very fine scale. Normally our velocity in relation to the heat containing objects we are dealing with is zero but if we were moving away or towards at vast speeds the heat content of that object would be different for us.