Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?

[rlortie]

I am with you on this one Dax!

Fletcher and I both have always maintained the opinion that the load was lifted by using the axle as a capstan, cathead, or which ever you wish to call it.

If it was a four part line lifting two stories, and the axle was used as a winch, you would end up with quite a bundle of rope on the axle.

I know you are knowledge in rigging! If it were a winch think about the 'lead' and/or fairlead problem presented.

Ralph

[Mark]

...the load was lifted by using the axle as a capstan...

I couldn't agree more.

And, not only would the winch set-up make for a bundle of rope, the wheel would need to be started and stopped for each lift and drop. Not good selling points.

[daxwc]

Ralph:

If it were a winch think about the 'lead' and/or fairlead problem presented.

I think people that used the slide ruler before the calculator was invented knew its limitations and parameters the best. What I mean is there is probably a skill that the axle/capstan/cathead was used so it lifted without a human holding the tail, then without stopping the wheel human intervention allowed it to be lowered. Meaning the bundle of rope was not on the axle but on the ground.

From experience you can get a rope friction cathead to pick up a load without somebody pulling on the tail and lower the load simply by feeding slack into the tail when it is desired to lower it. Usually this is not done in normal operations because the human is giving up control of how fast or slow the load can be lifted as that is controlled by having just enough wraps so that the cathead slips on the rope. The rpm limits only the maximum speed it can be lifted and one was careful not to use too many wraps as a runaway could happen which resulted in many nasty accidents. But Bessler’s wheels were going 28 rpm not 500+ so I imagine it could easily be managed.

If you are having trouble understanding the concept this video provides the basics, although not on a winch system but used as a hammer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YZ_MiwgSS4

[rasselasss]

Continuing on this theme,i thought the R.P.M. of the Wheels ie.20,40,70 approx.as best could be counted by witness's,a factor more to do with "limiting" the effects of C/F on the mechanism's ....but along the lines of "illusion"...30,45,or 60,would be a direct indicator and draw attention of "clockwork",wound coil spring activity ...in this image of a black forest wood plate movement circa.1750's,an example for illustration of an "inner and outer gear driven shaft"...

[Furcurequs]

rasselass,

That's something along the lines of what I was thinking, if I were to try to fake it, of course, with an internal wound spring and an artificial ground/horizon.

Ralph:

If it were a winch think about the 'lead' and/or fairlead problem presented.

I think people that used the slide ruler before the calculator was invented knew its limitations and parameters the best. What I mean is there is probably a skill that the axle/capstan/cathead was used so it lifted without a human holding the tail, then without stopping the wheel human intervention allowed it to be lowered. Meaning the bundle of rope was not on the axle but on the ground.

From experience you can get a rope friction cathead to pick up a load without somebody pulling on the tail and lower the load simply by feeding slack into the tail when it is desired to lower it. Usually this is not done in normal operations because the human is giving up control of how fast or slow the load can be lifted as that is controlled by having just enough wraps so that the cathead slips on the rope. The rpm limits only the maximum speed it can be lifted and one was careful not to use too many wraps as a runaway could happen which resulted in many nasty accidents. But Bessler’s wheels were going 28 rpm not 500+ so I imagine it could easily be managed.

If you are having trouble understanding the concept this video provides the basics, although not on a winch system but used as a hammer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YZ_MiwgSS4

Thanks for that video. I don't know that I had specifically seen something like that used before.

Walter Lewin in one of his MIT Physics 8.01 videos, though, devotes about 12 minutes or so to discussing and analyzing the use of a coil of rope around a fixed pole or rod to control the lowering of heavy loads. The relevant part of the following video starts at around 20:10.

Lec 25 | 8.01 Physics I: Classical Mechanics, Fall 1999 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJfuU7D1DOA

Dwayne

[Dunesbury]

Weight of rope for demonstrations is more significant than I thought.
It was quite long, and it would have needed to be thick for safety.
How much do you think it weighed?

[Furcurequs]

Natural fiber rope is pretty strong. Here are some tables for manila and sisal rope strength:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/manil ... _1512.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sisal ... _1517.html

Notice the "safe load" is considered to be 1/12th the breaking strength. So, for these types we would be looking at maybe a 5/16" diameter manila or a 3/8" sisal. With the pounds mass per foot given, 0.026 and 0.04 respectively, it looks like we're probably only somewhere near a pound of rope - give or take.

Dwayne

[daxwc]

We used to use 1 ¼� x 300’ manila rope which came to 122 lbs.

A nice size to work with is 1� or 7/8� as it handles in your palm better and has more friction surface area per wrap then smaller sizes. It wasn’t all about minimum size for load and I would assume more so in Bessler’s era. Also if you stall the lift out with the load on and let the rope slip on the cathead for too long you can burn the rope and cause its failure.

I think if you use his drawings as a reference he was using a larger size, my opinion anyway.

[Dunesbury]

In lecture, more turns on pipe reduces force to balance load.
As Bessler wheel axle turns, many times, more rope wraps around, more friction, tension 1 and 2 change, and force needed to lift load becomes less.
Correct? or incorrect?

[daxwc]

It would be set up so the tail hit the ground and coiled there and so the number of predetermined wraps would be the same throughout the lift.

[daxwc]

It is predetermined by experience fairly quickly. Usually a human is supposed to apply a little back pressure (pull on the rope) to have good control of the lift. But it can be done without humans for example 5 wraps still slips but 6 wraps will lift by its self.

[daxwc]

Then the rope will walk sideways along the axle/ cathead/ capstan which is why the axle is so long in Besslers builds which involve winching. On an 8� axle every turn will lift 25� or approximately 2 feet. To lift to a second storey rafter is probably 19 feet and require about 9.5 wraps of side travel and so if using 1� rope use up 9.5� or more of axle depending how you are setup to the lead.

[rasselasss]

Off-topic to what you guys are discussing,but i think this an interesting link to "the forgotten technology"of rope and its uses..

[rasselasss]

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2013- ... ope-drives

[rlortie]

Dax,

Did not a witness say that the rope lifting the box was using a four part line? If so, to lift 19 feet would take a considerable longer rope!

I believe I will stick to the theory that the axle was being used as a horizontal capstan, or you may call it a windless, in marine language a cathead does not apply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathead

A cathead winch does apply: https://www.google.com/search?q=cathead ... channel=sb

As for the size of rope, if it were indeed a four part line, it would not have to be very big in diameter. The alleged weight lifted was what? some story's say it was a hundred weight while others estimated 70 pounds.

Old saying: A rope is as weak as its strongest strand, a chain is as strong as its weakest link!