I think in my early days of seeking PM, I tried a design that used 8 weighted pendulums that would flip over at around 45 deg past top dead center on my wheel. The problem was that, during the flip when the pendulum was horizontal, the entire wheel would back rotate so that, after the flip, there was no net motion in it! That is the problem I encountered...when the flipping pendulum was horizontal, its weight was momentary NOT applying any torque to the wheel which allowed the wheel to back rotate.
Anyway, this could not have been the mechanism Bessler used...it seems to involve excessive motion inside the drum...I think his designs operated with a lot less motion.
ken
P.S. Amateur...I am looking forward to your next "rebuilt" script for WM2D. It's too bad we do not have a completely satisfactory rebuild program which would allow us to readily share our various WM2D creations with each other...
It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than trying to solely profit
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Ken,
Hello.
And that is not the mechanism I'm using either.
Anyway, after analysing what Mr. Bessler did and how he did it, writings, comments, etc., I believe he used the seventeenth century version of 128 bit encryption in his writings to throw off everybody from the trail. No dishonor in that.
Won't be posting for awhile. Want to reduce to practice and if it works will contact John Collins privately first.
If it is a failure, then everybody gets a picture like last time.
Robert
Hello.
And that is not the mechanism I'm using either.
Anyway, after analysing what Mr. Bessler did and how he did it, writings, comments, etc., I believe he used the seventeenth century version of 128 bit encryption in his writings to throw off everybody from the trail. No dishonor in that.
Won't be posting for awhile. Want to reduce to practice and if it works will contact John Collins privately first.
If it is a failure, then everybody gets a picture like last time.
Robert
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Hi Ken:
Is this what you were talking about?
Turulato
Is this what you were talking about?
Turulato
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- A bunch of pendulums
Inventors, Masters of Creative and independent thought
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Or was it more like this?
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Inventors, Masters of Creative and independent thought
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
... is it just me?
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"A man with a new idea is a crank until he succeeds."~ M. Twain.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Oxygon,
To get a correct answer you need to use the weight differences. Do the same thing but choose two more colors. So you will have left side 1 lb, left side 4 lb, right side 1 lb, and right side 4 lb. Now again add up the bars but this time add the 4 lb bars 4 times because they are 4 times heaver.
Just trying to help,
To get a correct answer you need to use the weight differences. Do the same thing but choose two more colors. So you will have left side 1 lb, left side 4 lb, right side 1 lb, and right side 4 lb. Now again add up the bars but this time add the 4 lb bars 4 times because they are 4 times heaver.
Just trying to help,
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Also, move the wheel around, say CW, in increments of a few degrees at a time thru a segment (until the set up looks the same again) & recalculate. Table the results & a sine curve will result. Half positive above the base line & half negative below the base line.
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
turulator and Oxygon...
Very clever designs! My version was somewhat different in that mine was supposed to take advantage of a pendulum's tendency, due to centrifugal force, to get heavier at the bottom of its swing and my wheel had 8 pendulums in it. My design did not work for the reasons I stated above and from examining your designs it looks like they all have some position of static equilibrium whereat the composite c.g. of the various weights eventually comes to rest below the wheel's axle.
I took your first design, turulator and made a quick WM2D model for it. The angular momentum curve to the left tells what happens. It seems to get off to an impressive start, but then quickly keels thereafter.
ken
P.S. This is why I am allergic to pendulums!
Very clever designs! My version was somewhat different in that mine was supposed to take advantage of a pendulum's tendency, due to centrifugal force, to get heavier at the bottom of its swing and my wheel had 8 pendulums in it. My design did not work for the reasons I stated above and from examining your designs it looks like they all have some position of static equilibrium whereat the composite c.g. of the various weights eventually comes to rest below the wheel's axle.
I took your first design, turulator and made a quick WM2D model for it. The angular momentum curve to the left tells what happens. It seems to get off to an impressive start, but then quickly keels thereafter.
ken
P.S. This is why I am allergic to pendulums!
- Attachments
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- These swinging pendulums just won't behave themselves...
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Do pendulums come under the harmonic balance category?
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Thank you very much Ken.
You have saved me the frustration of another failure.
I downloaded the WM2D software, how did you make that outer circle that is so essential to do what we do?
Turulato
You have saved me the frustration of another failure.
I downloaded the WM2D software, how did you make that outer circle that is so essential to do what we do?
Turulato
Inventors, Masters of Creative and independent thought
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
No problem, turtulato...glad I could save you some time.
Yes, do follow Jim's mini-tutorial for getting started with WM2D...it saved me about 90% of the start-up problems I would have encountered if I had not read it and took some notes.
WM2D may look a little intimidating at first, but you will be amazed at how quickly you can be constructing simple mechanical assemblies with it. EVERYONE at this discussion board should be using it in my opinion.
Attached is a quick Paint sketch of that pendulum design I alluded to above. I think it is correct...it's been a long time. IF I had had WM2D back then, I could have eliminated it from consideration in minutes!
ken
Yes, do follow Jim's mini-tutorial for getting started with WM2D...it saved me about 90% of the start-up problems I would have encountered if I had not read it and took some notes.
WM2D may look a little intimidating at first, but you will be amazed at how quickly you can be constructing simple mechanical assemblies with it. EVERYONE at this discussion board should be using it in my opinion.
Attached is a quick Paint sketch of that pendulum design I alluded to above. I think it is correct...it's been a long time. IF I had had WM2D back then, I could have eliminated it from consideration in minutes!
ken
- Attachments
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- If I had only known then what I know now...
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Hello,
Made some progress with some unexpected spare time today.
My new mechanism has 8ea. 5lb weights, from a standstill and with how I have them moving, the wheel went past where the next weight(s) is (are) activated by about 4 inches on the perimeter.
BUT, it's not going to work until I can dream up a catch/release to let the weight(s) activate at the right time in the cycle.
The 5lb weights came from a 3" by 48" round bar of cold rolled steel that I cut 2 11/16 long on the band saw and then milled flat and square to 2.5" on my brother's metal lathe. Put a 1/4" hole dead center on the flat side.
Then there are other sizes I've made from 2" square stock. These sets of weights are great in that they can be reused over and over in design tests.
Made some progress with some unexpected spare time today.
My new mechanism has 8ea. 5lb weights, from a standstill and with how I have them moving, the wheel went past where the next weight(s) is (are) activated by about 4 inches on the perimeter.
BUT, it's not going to work until I can dream up a catch/release to let the weight(s) activate at the right time in the cycle.
The 5lb weights came from a 3" by 48" round bar of cold rolled steel that I cut 2 11/16 long on the band saw and then milled flat and square to 2.5" on my brother's metal lathe. Put a 1/4" hole dead center on the flat side.
Then there are other sizes I've made from 2" square stock. These sets of weights are great in that they can be reused over and over in design tests.
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Ken. Jim:
Thanks a lot, I truely appreciate it.
The race continues, I have another idea based on the statement that Ken had me pondering about what JB said that the mechanism follows the "laws of perpetual motion" the only one that I can think of , is the one governing the celestial bodies in the universe where heavier bodies attract smaller ones and the smaller ones get trapped in the orbit of the big ones. That being my belief I think all I have to do is find the mechanics of this (which I think I do :-) hahaha famous last words.
Thanks again guy.
Turulato
Thanks a lot, I truely appreciate it.
The race continues, I have another idea based on the statement that Ken had me pondering about what JB said that the mechanism follows the "laws of perpetual motion" the only one that I can think of , is the one governing the celestial bodies in the universe where heavier bodies attract smaller ones and the smaller ones get trapped in the orbit of the big ones. That being my belief I think all I have to do is find the mechanics of this (which I think I do :-) hahaha famous last words.
Thanks again guy.
Turulato
Inventors, Masters of Creative and independent thought
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
I'm pretty encouraged by what I'm finding out about the capabilities of "power and push".
Instead of having two weights acting on the same plane where there are conflicts between all of them, I'm putting an identical set on the reverse side of the wheel. 8 then, on each side. Also staggering the second set 22.5 degrees out of phase with the first set.
With just the one set going, when ONE weight activates, the wheel will go about 40 degrees and stops (no backtracking), and this is with lifting all the weights on the opposite side of the wheel (the same plane). So, with just this ONE weight doing its thing, I need about 3 more inches on the rim before the next weight activates.
I am HOPING HUGH that with the second set behaving the same way, that this dead spot will be run over and some momentum will be built up.
Will be ordering some bronze sleeve bearings from Grainger.com tomorrow. 3/8 x 1 inch. Very cheap.
What I have now is just holes drilled in wood and pivoting on hex head bolts. Sort of stiff....
Regards to All
Instead of having two weights acting on the same plane where there are conflicts between all of them, I'm putting an identical set on the reverse side of the wheel. 8 then, on each side. Also staggering the second set 22.5 degrees out of phase with the first set.
With just the one set going, when ONE weight activates, the wheel will go about 40 degrees and stops (no backtracking), and this is with lifting all the weights on the opposite side of the wheel (the same plane). So, with just this ONE weight doing its thing, I need about 3 more inches on the rim before the next weight activates.
I am HOPING HUGH that with the second set behaving the same way, that this dead spot will be run over and some momentum will be built up.
Will be ordering some bronze sleeve bearings from Grainger.com tomorrow. 3/8 x 1 inch. Very cheap.
What I have now is just holes drilled in wood and pivoting on hex head bolts. Sort of stiff....
Regards to All
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.