Weights???

[rlortie]

Raj wrote:

Unfortunately, the drum wheel is a plastic container and the two connected inner wheels' axles are two long screw bolts and nuts, and therefore they tend to roll unparallel after a while, and rub against the side of the drum wheel.

Your clear plastic container is cone shaped, larger circumference at the top compared to the bottom. This can obviously be seen by comparing the connecting bars between wheels 3 and 5. As it rolls it will track toward and make contact with the lid.

Find a container that is symmetrical top and bottom. It need not be clear as you have already proved your point!

You show it sitting on an appliance were we are left to assume is level, I question this as the objects it impacts roll off in an accelerated motion. Please do future tests on a level floor.

Ralph

[Tarsier79]

Ralph, I think the other objects sitting on the surface are to show it is level. Also, I think you hit the nail on the head:

Your clear plastic container is cone shaped, larger circumference at the top compared to the bottom. This can obviously be seen by comparing the connecting bars between wheels 3 and 5. As it rolls it will track toward and make contact with the lid.

This may be causing rotation, the roller making its way to the lowest point in the container.

Raj. During my late night session considering your wheel:

The relative COM of the two weights will be different in water to what they are in air. Using my hillbilly math skills and your diagram in a 2d world, I used a density of 2x water for your large displacement weight, then back calculated the density of the small heavy mass, and got 35.6 x water, to be in the position you have drawn. In water, a mass with density of 1 will be neutral, so a density of 2 will have a relative weight of the water + 1, the heavier will be water + 34.6. If you then calculate the COM of these weights out of water, it will shift, causing the weights to move further right.

So, looking at the masses as density of water + "X", the water density across the whole is the same, but with the addition of the relative extra weight, which is balanced.

The water pressure pushing down on all parts of the lower hemisphere is equal on both sides, regardless of the displacement. The masses themselves will shift to move the COM to the lowest point (balance).

Nice out of the box thinking Raj! I look forward to seeing your further testing.

[rlortie]

Tarsier79

I used a density of 2x water for your large displacement weight,

I am under the impression that the large displacement wheel weighs much less than water and is held down by anchor weight #3. It is displacing the water by area not by its weight. Thus making for the fluid on the right side of axis to weigh more than the left side.

If so, then Raj is correct, I can grasp the concept as being OB, but I do not see how Raj believes it will rotate.

EDIT:

The water pressure pushing down on all parts of the lower hemisphere is equal on both sides, regardless of the displacement. The masses themselves will shift to move the COM to the lowest point (balance).

Agree that the water pressure will equalize, there is not getting around that. But you do have a differential of liquid volume from side to side.

Ralph

[Tarsier79]

Raj, One more thing. If you are convinced you have something special, and are willing to sacrifice your plastic container, you could peirce a hole in the centre of the lid and the bottom for an axle to hang a simple cradle from for your weights. This would keep them on "track", and your container would be free to roll around in circles on your floor. The water level would be slightly lower.

ADD: Ralph, the larger cylinder has to have a density more than water, or it would float up directly above the heavy cylinder, protruding from the surface of the water. Even so, the following would still apply:

So, looking at the masses as density of water + "X", the water density across the whole is the same, but with the addition of the relative extra weight, which is balanced.

[rlortie]

ADD: Ralph, the larger cylinder has to have a density more than water, or it would float up directly above the heavy cylinder, protruding from the surface of the water. Even so, the following would still apply:

Agree, so I can think of two ways to solve this problem;

1. Add struts from main axle to displacement wheel.
2. Add rings to sides that displacement axle will ride upon. Any thing to keep it submerged.

Not sure I understand your quote?

I realize that the PSI will be equal through out, but you obviously have more volume and weight on one side of vertical axis. Will it rotate? IMO possibly while sitting on the floor, but not as a axle suspended wheel.

[raj]

Ralph and Tarsier79,
Thank you both, for your excellent teaching inputs.

I try to follow your arguments, but I cannot join in the debate, as my physics knowledge is almost zero.

I graduated in Mathematics in UK many years ago, and my limited elementary physics has rusted away. The only thing I now rely on is now, is LOGICS.

I arrived at my Hydraulic Gravity Wheel concept, while searching a type of weight that is fluid and soft that can change it form to suit the the place where it finds itself.

I tried several types, including balloons filled with water. I found them difficult to roll as they flatten.

I have always searched for torque (gravity) driven designs, because it requires more logics than physics to check the equilibrium by a layman.

Coming back to my Hydraulic Gravity Wheel design, my logics tells me that the wheel will never find equilibrium.

Can somebody tell me, looking at my drawing above, where will be the KEELING position of my wheel?

My simple layman's reasoning is this:
1. The drum wheel is balance. It will not turn by itself.
2. If we put the two connected inner wheels, as per my initial drawing, ONLY, in the drum wheel, the wheel won't turn.
3. If we put only water(weight) in the drum wheel, the wheel won't turn.
4. But when we put both the connected two wheels and the water(weight), it changes the COM of the wheel, and the wheel will be overbalanced and turn.

WHAT would happen NEXT???
That was the question I asked, at the very beginning of this thread.

Well this is what I think, will happen:

1. the wheel will turn.
2. the water(weight) will displace towards the descending side of wheel.
3. the two connected (submerged)wheel will be lifted by the turning wheel on the ascending side.
4. Reaching the required SLOPE on the rim of the wheel, the two connected inner wheels WILL Roll downwards pushing/displacing the water(weight) towards the descending side.
5. The drum wheel will reset to its initial overbalanced state and continue to turn.

Raj

[Art]

Hi Raj ,

Nice to see you having fun with water here ! When you are finished you could add some ice and give it to a celebrity of your choice to pour on their head : )


If the weight and float is what is causing the bucket in your video to run counterclockwise to the left ( - by virtue of the float being to the right of the rolling weight ), then flipping the weight system so that the float is to the left of the rolling weight should cause the bucket to roll clockwise to the right !.

If it doesn't then you might find that the bucket will still roll to the left with just the weight ,bucket and water and no float , - which would indicate that Ralph's suggestion of it being due to the bucket being conical is probably correct.

Nice experiment , keep up the good work .

.

[Tarsier79]

you obviously have more volume and weight on one side of vertical axis.

That is where we don't agree. I repeated an experiment I did a while ago just now:

1. Shows hanging container in balance with string line and reference line drawn on container:



2. Shows unbalanced container:



3. Balanced container with liquid:


4. Balanced container with a large proportion of liquid displaced to the other side. the purple displacer is not touching the sides of the clear container:


Conclusion: even though the liquid weighs heavier in one half of the container does not make it unbalance in that direction.

[raj]

Thanks Art!

I am sorry to say, there's NO FLOAT in my design.
There are two heavy SUBMERGED connected wheels that can ROLL freely below water inside the drum wheel.

Raj

[raj]

Tarsier79,
VERY GOOD testing approach,

Raj

[Tarsier79]

Raj, there is however something that might be utilised from displacement. Notice the angle of the screwdriver in the 4 pictures? the support bends when the weight increases. So, pushing the purple displacer into the water increased the force pushing down along the length of the container evenly.

[raj]

Tarsier79,
I just had a second thought on your testing demonstration.

Ok you've shown that, even though there is more volume of water on one side of the container, the container stays balanced.

I see that you are holding a smaller container inside to keep/displace the water to one side.
What would happen if you let go that small container?

I am sure that the small container will fly/rise upwards instantly to a floating position.

In fact, according to me, by holding the small container deep in the water, you are applying force that is keeping everything balance, even though there is more water on one side.

Am I right in my assumption?

Raj

[Tarsier79]

Yes, I am pushing down with force on the displacer. If I let it float on the top, the same will happen, the container will balance. The same would happen if I sucked some of the water out on one side into an upturned glass.

You should experiment further yourself to discover why your container turned and let us know the result.

[Tarsier79]

Hey Raj. I get what you are saying. If the displacer was physically fixed to the container, it would shift the physical COM, and it would tip.

[rlortie]

I held off responding, in hopes that tarsier would make his above post.

Go back to your hanging experiment and dump the water out, next take the container you were forcing down and make it water proof. with super glue or double back tape, fasten it to the bottom left or right of your larger container and pour the water back in.

I am curious as to what your response will be!

Ralph