Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?

[Furcurequs]

For those who haven't seen it, this seems to be Wagner's suggestion as to how Bessler's wheels could have been faked. Notice that he has even used the springs and gearing itself as part of the weight that is suspended from the axle to provide the artificial ground/horizon. This mechanism, then, being suspended and hidden within the wheel drum.




http://www.free-energy.co.uk/assets/ima ... _wheel.jpg

From this page of John Collins' website:

http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/wagne ... que_1.html

Dwayne

[johannesbender]

basically wagner designed a spring driven cranked wheel , It is an interesting design but it does fall short
of going for long extended periods .

the spring concept with the crank is quite interesting
to me though, wagner seem to have been convinced
that the motive power were spring related ,or did
he simply took a poke at bessler for a response ...

jb

[Furcurequs]

This may actually be from before the public duration tests were performed. If you read Wagner's critique, he was critical of Bessler for not doing demonstrations lasting longer than a quarter to half an hour at the time and was trying to get him to do duration tests which apparently had already been promised. He says in one part of the critique that he didn't believe a wheel the size of Bessler's (at that time) would be able to run for 24 hours and thought that would be a convincing demonstration.

I skimmed through the second critique and it seems to have basically the same arguments. I don't know what he had to say after the duration tests were performed. Maybe others might know.

Dwayne

[ovyyus]

Wagner probably knew that if Bessler's wheel was spring powered then it could not store enough energy to run for 24 hours. Bessler said his wheel wasn't spring powered. AFAIK Wagner offered no other designs or explanations. I expect the successful long duration test would have had him stumped.

There seem limited options for storing enough energy inside the wheel to fake a long duration test. Some kind of fuel tank filled with oil, wax, alcohol, etc?

[rasselasss]

By locking and sealing his Wheel in a room for the said number of days would not inspire confidence in me if i were an observer....by doing so would suggest the possibility of "something to hide"...if it were me i would ensure there was no question of ambiguity to the observers..an open door policy... IMO

[johannesbender]

I agree it had to have been before the long duration test .

wagner seem to have been out to prove fraud ,I like
the part where he stated if bessler would do something to his wheel he (wagner) would be ready too , but he was definitely "stumped" lol

there couldn't have been to much possible techniques
for bessler to employ fraud , thinking about it ,what
were available back then ? ...heat ,wind,human,chemical reactions, atmospheric pressure ,springs,compression ?

wagner settled for springs , others settled for human
power , but apparently wagner mentioned more than
springs if I remember correctly ..

wagner had a hanging weight design or did I mis interpret ? if it were , I find it interesting not for the
springs but for other reasons .

jb

[bluesgtr44]

Hey J.B.

I agree it had to have been before the long duration test .

wagner had a hanging weight design or did I misinterpret ? if it were , I find it interesting not for the
springs but for other reasons .

Wagner's critique was done on the Draschwitz wheel. It was second wheel and was unidirectional. From anything I've seen or read this is the only wheel that Wagner had actually witnessed. Wagner's design was based on what was called a turnspit and used as a rotisarry device in cooking. There were probably other uses for these, but this is the one I remember being mentioned.

Hey Ralph...How ya doin'

I have never put much stock into the drawings!

Over the years I have pretty much shied away from Bessler's drawings and text. For over 300 years man has beat it to death! Looking for hidden clues and contriving various ideas from his sketch's have been for naught.

I stay tuned here for invigoration and to exercise the brain, but my pursuit lays upon the eye witness testimonies. The ideas and concepts I now explore are either my own or suggested by others.

Yep, those are the only writings based in some reality. They only put forth what they actually witnessed was happening. I grew tired of Besslers excessive use of prose a long, long time ago. He's too long winded to say pretty much nothing. But, the witness accounts are pretty telling and it's apparent that those who were there were very impressed. And we are talking some pretty highly knowledgeable people of that time.

Hey Dwayne...Here's the write up from Andreas Weise of the Merseberg wheel. This was the first bi-directional wheel.

From G.B., page 68-69....copyright John Collins

I did indeed betake myself, with the other magistrates, to that spot and watched, from beginning to end, the entire performance, including the translocation, of the P.M. machine, in the presence of many renowned mathematicians who had also been invited. All of us observed the following - namely, after the inventor had shown us round the machine, thereby amply demonstrating that there were nowhere present any of the fictitious, maliciously postulated devices which were supposed to work the machine, he then set in motion - it is essentially a roughly 6 ell diameter wheel, about a foot in width. He did this with little difficulty, moving it by hand until a single weight inside it was heard to begin falling. It then began to rotate of its own accord with such force that within a minute it had rotated 40 and more times, and could only be stopped by applying great effort. The inventor also caused the wheel to rotate in the reverse direction, in fact, during the course of the test, it ran several times in each direction. He then attached a rope to the axle - the other end being allowed to hang down out of the window. This far end was attached to a chest full of bricks - about 70 lb. weight in all - and this load was raised and lowered several times by the machine. The most noteworthy detail regarding this particular experiment was that the wheel, while under this considerable load, continued to rotate at exactly the same rate as when it was running "empty". Then the inventor, in the presence of all, caused the machine to be lifted from its usual framework and placed in another. All of us present were then invited to examine minutely the original bearings and found nothing whatever to justify talk of secret mechanisms. Indeed, it was obvious to us the motive principle was hidden inside the wheel itself. After we had thus satisfied ourselves that all was in good order, the inventor then had the machine replaced on its original bearings and, as before, with the slightest of touches, the wheel was set revolving once more., soon regaining its original quite considerable velocity. this was, perhaps, the thing which was most admired by the learned mathematicians and other enquiring minds who were present. The device was, in short, fully approved of and freed from all the suspicion and doubt which had hitherto surrounded it. And all of this upon the duly made request, we are now pleased, in the interests of truth, to attest and document, with the settling of the appropriate seal of the Hochfurst's office, and my own signature as Chief Official there of.

The bolded part is something that I, just like Weise, found absolutely astounding. We had a bit of a back and forth on this a long while back.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... t&start=75

He's very pointed about that statement. And if so, it really causes some pause as to what he really had.


Steve

[rlortie]

Hello Steve, its been a while!

Your mention of Johann weise, brings to attention a point of interest that the Newbies may not be aware of him.

I am hesitant to print this as it appears to be a copyright infringement, but apparently Google does not agree!

Google excerpts found in John Collins "Grundlicher Bericht"

http://books.google.com/books?id=M9hkzI ... se&f=false

Mention of Weise #3 of 3:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FPnchU ... se&f=false

Ralph

[John Collins]

No problemo, Ralph. I gave google permission.

JC

[bluesgtr44]

Hello Steve, its been a while!

Your mention of Johann weise, brings to attention a point of interest that the Newbies may not be aware of him.

I am hesitant to print this as it appears to be a copyright infringement, but apparently Google does not agree!

Google excerpts found in John Collins "Grundlicher Bericht"

http://books.google.com/books?id=M9hkzI ... se&f=false

Mention of Weise #3 of 3:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FPnchU ... se&f=false

Ralph

Hey Ralph...good to hear from ya. Gotta a lot of other things going on. I think you are aware that, much like you...my wife has been battling cancer. Yeah, it's a life changer in a lot of ways and I'm aware that you know that yourself. Sara is stage 4 now and has been for almost a year now. We've been battling that along with rheumatoid arthritis for about 5 years now. I think I have my priorities in their proper perspective. We will be celebrating 33 yrs. this December, so she's been a huge part of my life. I didn't want this to be a factor in these other aspects, but it's just that big. I have missed this place and the folks here.

Ok, that aside.....what I just put up as far as eye witness accounts go. You're either looking for your own approach to PM or you're looking for what Bessler did. I am looking at what Bessler did and the reason why is that HE ALREADY DID IT!

That being said, think about it. This arrangement of his was not just barely getting a bit of an over balance....he had a serious over balance, did he not? One of my first threads here dealt with "wheel acceleration" because after I had read some of the basic information provided here, I couldn't get past the witnesses that proclaimed the fast and robust ability of this contraption to get from 0 to 60 rpm's within the first 2 to 3 rotations. This was his first un-directional wheel at Gera. Do that! Come up with any kind of arrangement that can do that! Do you not see how totally mind blowing that would be?

From the time that Bessler proclaimed that he had come up with the understanding, and he was able to get just one cross bar to "to turn just a little".....he had the Gera wheel up and running at about 60 rpm in less than a year...LESS THAN A YEAR! This isn't rocket science that he came across. This was something other than just the simple OOB that we see presented here on a daily/weekly basis. He definitely came across something that would have been a game changer for his time.

Now, I think some of the problem with the Bessler solution as he proclaimed it to be started to wear on him as to whether or not it was a genuine PMM as defined by the status quo at the time. It really seems to point towards another source that he maybe stumbled upon that simply wasn't known at that time and era. We've already seen some of the premises put forth here on the board as what they may have been.

In summary....we already know what his wheels were capable of by eye witness accounts. If you have a design that you think could duplicate that, speed it up and see how it passes the acceleration test. Try and get your design to go from 0 to even just 40 in about 2-3 rotations. How fast did it accomplish this? Don't know....I've tried to find any information as to the time it took to do this and all I have seen is that it took 2-3 rotations. Go figure! If you think your OOB design has any merit...try to speed it up manually. Watch what it does within those 2-3 rotations and if you still see a promise? It shouldn't take you but about a year to work it out.....other that that? It's not what Bessler accomplished.

Not trying to be harsh or mean here......just stating the facts as far as the results of what Bessler accomplished. This is the Besslerwheel.com site....not the OU site. This is about Bessler and whether or not he was real. Just my own personal opinion.

Speed it up and see how it holds together....if it goes absolutely ballistic and things are flying all over the place, chances are that is not the way to go. 50-60 rpm's.......think about that....and it was steady and smooth. WOW!


Steve

ETA: I've said this before...and here it is again. Reaction forces in the dynamic system. Use them.......or lose them. It has to be one or the other unless someone can propose any other rationale. Thus, he used a gear ratio that fed a flywheel configuration of some sorts....or he was actually able to harness those reaction forces and that is what drives the system. This would be along the lines of what Jim is looking at with CF.

[bluesgtr44]

I want to apologize to rasselasss. I took you're thread off course. Guilty.....sorry for doing this.

[bluesgtr44]

No problemo, Ralph. I gave google permission.

JC

Fine John....but I won't put "copyright Google" on my posts. It's going be John Collins. That's still good, right?


Steve

[Furcurequs]

Hey J.B.

I agree it had to have been before the long duration test .

wagner had a hanging weight design or did I misinterpret ? if it were , I find it interesting not for the
springs but for other reasons .

Wagner's critique was done on the Draschwitz wheel. It was second wheel and was unidirectional. From anything I've seen or read this is the only wheel that Wagner had actually witnessed. Wagner's design was based on what was called a turnspit and used as a rotisarry device in cooking. There were probably other uses for these, but this is the one I remember being mentioned.

jb,

In the first paragraph of the appendix of the first critique, Wagner mentions that he had tested with weights - and it certainly does sound like he meant descending weights. It's the sentence in blue.

Steve,

In the first critique, Wagner actually compares differences between the Draschwitz and Merseburg wheels. So, is it your understanding, then, that the information he uses about the Merseburg wheel is all second-hand and that of the Draschwitz wheel first-hand? The way some of it is worded, it's hard to tell the difference. It does seem, though, that paragraphs which mention the "rattle and clatter" of the Merseburg wheel and some other things do begin with mention of "the defender" and at least a second-hand account of some of the information.

Though he may have only seen the unidirectional wheel, he did address the bidirectional wheel and so his spring design, that I already posted the picture of, from the appendix is apparently designed to be bi-directional. He even says that he knew another way to make it so, but didn't have room to show it on the copperplate. ...the stuff in brown in the quotes from the appendix below.

Because Orffyreus has frequently challenged his adversaries to build a machine capable of rotating left and right at the same speed while raising a load, I have calculated one such machine. Regarding the motive principle, this is made of springs because I am totally of the opinion that he likewise must have springs in his wheel; the narrow space inside it allows no other mechanical power to be applied. I have already tested it with weights, which are the second-best thing to use after springs; but weights present two inconveniences: first of all, because of their weight the axle of the wheel is burdened too heavily; secondly, the motion cannot be prolonged because the weights do not have enough space to descend. The other mechanical powers are not suitable for making NB the motion lengthy and strong at the same time. Here the application of the motive principle appears to be most difficult because the trunnions turn with the axle and thus there is no fixed point in the entire machine; everything is in motion; since the fixed point cannot go round with the wheel as long as the wheel is driving but necessarily must remain at one place,many have doubtlessly been misled to believe that Orffyreus' wheel is the true perpetual motion machine.

The axle of aforesaid wheel m. bends at n., from which point the arm o. goes up to the axis of the large wheel. An iron spindle, q,q, fig. 2., passes through this axis and bends at r. Through this bending the wheel is able to turn left and right, which ever way one directs it at the beginning; from this bending one also perceives why the wheel cannot start to move by itself, for the bent axles and especially the perpendicular must first be set in motion through applied assistance.

Moreover, in no way do I assert that my wheel must agree exactly with that of Orffyreus in regard to the distribution of the wheels, number of cogs, driving rods and other things. Two different things can be identical in effect and main action. Because of the limited space on the copperplate, I was unable to include another way of making the wheel turn left and right, but I can provide a sketch upon request.

http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/wagne ... que_1.html

[bluesgtr44]

As far as I know Wagner only witnessed the Draschwitz wheel. Bessler does address this in his response to Wagner in AP. Wagner's critique is based on that visit in Draschwitz and from the information in GB. GB was not totally written by Bessler and I'm not sure at this time as to who the other writer was. This is who Wagner is referring to as "the defender".

So, Bessler puts out Grundlicher Bericht which is the witness and authentication account of the bi-directional wheel at Merseburg. The information that Wagner is pulling from on the bi-directional wheel is based on the information from G.B., which also includes the eye witness accounts and their seals of authenticity giving Bessler credit for his invention. Besslers response to the Wagner critique is towards the end of Apologia Poetica. So, that's the back and forth of these two. Once this was put together it shone a big light as to when Bessler was talking about how his wheel operated or if he was talking about Wagners turnspit design. Some of what we thought were clues weren't even about his wheel.....they were describing Wagners.

Here's where this came about on the forum here.....

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... l&start=15

Here is where I put together the critiques of Wagner as it applied to GB.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=4977

I never finished putting in Besslers rebuttal as it applied from AP. There is a response in AP as to Wagner not being at the Merseburg demonstration because he wasn't invited as a dignitary and didn't have the horse cart come pick him up for the event. This was done in a very snide way and Bessler was getting in the jab that he could have come as a mere observer. They really didn't like each other much.

[Furcurequs]

Steve,

Thanks for that information. It really helps clear up some of the questions I had. I'll also check out those other threads. It sounds like they could really help us in understanding the context of certain quotes that have been addressed a bit as of late, too.

My pdf copies of some of the translated Bessler materials are, unfortunately, on a somewhat flaky hard drive in another computer at the moment.

When I can, I'll also try to share some of my thoughts on the load test mentioned in Andreas Weise's quote about the Merseberg wheel in which the wheel supposedly didn't slow down.