Fletcher's Wheel - Ingenuity verses Entropy

[FunWithGravity2]

Fletcher.

Very enjoyable and well presented so far, if their is more i wait patiently. I almost thought you were going to present us with a turning wheel until you said "i suspect". But im sure you have much more for us to chew on so i'll wait patiently.

The more scholarly folks (like you) here always present things very well and for that i am envious. I have said alot of things over the years in my thread but if you don't mind i would like to add some small input on my thoughts on this type of system that you are describing.

MASS matters, MASS ratios matter.

I think that most would think that the flywheel mass and the ratio of components in relationship to it would not matter but from my experience it is the key. I assume that it makes sense to disregard this as we are taking power from the flywheel(wheel) so how can its mass effect the outcome, but it does. As you have alluded to we are constanly trying to add an impulse to a rotating system and in order to do that it has to be able to recieve that impulse. Kind of like throwing that paper airplane, has to be just right or we crash and burn. If our flywheel is to light then our mechs will transfer power to quicly and incompletely and overrev the wheel negating the effects of our mechs and not work. If the wheel is to heavy then we lose the transfer in the opposite way and bounce our fist of the brick wall. Whatever the distance and time of our ideal transfer we have to have the proper mass density in the medium we are trying to transfer it all to.

I guess all i would try to say to anyone building a flywheel(wheel) dont walk away until you have changed the mass density of your wheel sufficiently enough so that you know how it effects your design.

Or im crazy


Crazy Dave.

[Fletcher]

No, I'm about done Dave - enough of the armchair theorist.

I'm sure people can visualize a simple pendulum that starts at 3 o'cl & where at max speed at 6 o'cl the bob is allowed to extend its radius etc - instead of wasting that energy in impact it accelerates a flywheel which is then braked transferring its angular momentum back to the pendulum etc to give it a kick upwards - when it reaches above 9 o'cl it is latched, then the mass slides back to the closer radius & the pendulum is released for the return stroke etc.

N.B. the Roberval Balance Gearing System (RBGS) was just a variation on this simple concept, for either pendulum format or rotary format.

As a matter of interest to me when I first started looking into Besslers Motion Wheel mystery (17 years ago now, thanks JC) I quickly focused on the shaft flywheel approach & using Cf's (inertia) & moments.

I built in sim world various sims where instead of the flywheel & braking mech to create a turning moment I just went with the pull mech to a stator (I could build that) - I could get 100% recovery of energy lost so that it reached its starting height again - but I was trying to pulse a moving target in the same reference frame as we've been discussing, & I knew that was a problem.

Two things stopped me from experimenting with the flywheel angular momentum approach - I hadn't really settled on a hypothesis for full momentum transfer as a means to create energy because I hadn't thought to do the vector analysis (for consecutive transfer) for angular momentum - & secondly I really struggled to break the CoE doctrine which was engrained, lack of belief - mostly I couldn't sim a flywheel & fusee arrangement & have never been able to figure out how to do it, if there is a way.

It's up to people to take what they want from this thread !

Personally I'm looking forward to concentrating on coconuts, sandy beaches, & 5 o'cl drinks - perhaps one day jim_mich will arrive on my doorstep & we'll have a laugh about it all.

ETA: the guts is the component vectors are separated & rejoined consecutively ie. full momentum transfer - we know that storing energy in a normal spring does not work for us because we have to push off something & the target is moving away so we lose effectiveness of power transfer - using braked flywheels & turning moments gets around this problem I believe.

[FunWithGravity2]

Fletcher,

if you wanna send some round trip tickets we can have a few good laughs now.

I had a large respons here but have just erased it as it was all so cleche that it made me sick to read my own words. I think that you have shared some very valuable information with the community here and I for one want to say thank you for your insights and ideas.

Oh yeah and i think your theory is correct ie vectors.

Are you allowed to distill your own spirits in Fiji?

Take a big sip and a deep breath for me and enjoy your day. Cheers Mate

Dave

[Fletcher]

Local spirits good price :)

While the splitting vector components makes sense to me, I have no real clue about how to mechanically create that last step efficiently.

I'm sure you can change linear KE into RKE of the flywheel.

If you use friction braking you lose energy to heat like in a car braking system - that's its purpose, to dissipate energy as heat or to recover energy via regeneration technology.

Some sort of torque converter technology might be the way to go but out of my league.

If someone can think of a way of creating that moment without losing bulk energy let me know ;7)

[daanopperman]

Hi Fletcher ,

In all of JB wheels he shows a pair of pendulums connected to the wheel via con rods . When the wheel speed rev's matches the pendulum's swing time , all is in harmony , but if the wheel speed increases the swing of the pendulum time wants to remain the same but it increases in arc , if the arc swing have not completed by the time the wheel is ready to reverse the direction of the con rod the pendulum will give a massive deceleration to the wheel . Unlike a normal piston /con rod ricipocation motion , the pendulum is connected to the crank by 2 connections , 1 to a background , 1 to the axel . If you construct a pend shaft able to flex in the middle , held true by 2 springs ( a V shape on the pend with a spring on each arm of the V ), one of the springs will be loaded instead of the violent kickback from the pendulum to the axel , so breaking but storing of energy in the spring to be released later to kick the pendulum back on the down swing , the wheel will slow down as this is what you want , but the energy is stored .

[johannesbender]

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6118

in that topic I have attempted a concept of a similar
approach , a weird design I came up with but it is
somewhat of an interesting connection to this topic ,
I thought a better approach would have been to
release only a small amount of energy from a flywheel
every certain amount of degrees instead of one
large continues release ,like a clock does ..

jb

[Fletcher]

Interesting thoughts daan & JB.

I guess attached to the background means the link to the T-Bar section of the pendulum daan ? - I always thought that must be some sort of flexible (soft) connection for the reasons you describe.

You might be right about the flywheel releasing short bursts JB - I well accept that my last 'connection' to full momentum transfer hypothesis about using moments most likely is wrong - I certainly don't have the mechanical experience to work thru that, pretty much limited to a bit of welding, metal work & carpentry skills - there are many here with far greater mechanical aptitude & experience than me, Ralph & Dave for instance - but it doesn't stop me thinking about things to the best of my ability & using what skills & tools (like WM) that I have at my disposal these days - gone is my workshop back in NZ - well, it's still there, just don't think I'll be visiting it any time soon.

........................

On that note just some comments.

........................

This thread is a bit of a clearing house for me - some of the ideas I've had, that still clutter my mind after all this time - it is good to get them down, let them go & explore them again even if I do end up at pretty much the same place as the first time - I do tend to play devils advocate with myself & Dwayne etc who has good humouredly chipped in to keep my feet on the ground - it is appreciated - it does allow me to see if I missed anything because someone elses perspective is not necessarily my own, & that is often valuable.

........................

Like Dave, I could easily fill a page with what by now are cliche's which run off the back like water off a ducks, so I'll mention only a few because it is hard to make things fresh.

JB had a skill set that was vast - organ maker, clock maker, air gun maker, carpenter & blacksmith skills - it took him 10 years to find his solution to the true PMM, by the time he was 32 - since he acquired these & other skills before & during that searching & building period then there just wasn't enough time in each profession to become a master (the ol' 10,000 hour benchmark) of any profession - he must have got reasonably proficient quickly probably helped by high mechanical aptitude for mechanics in particular - add to that his Rosicrucian training for logic & nature [thanks Dax] (the forerunner to Masonry), especially in Geometry (the G in Masonry) & the compass & square which we see in his pics in DT, & in MT as the bent bar A's etc, not to mention the 55, i.e. vv (the compass or square rotated) & his obvious love of geometry (squares, circles & pentagrams of Masonry) that many have found in his drawings, then we know he was a complex fellow who followed logic & nature & a code.

Which brings me to the next point - "if you eliminate the impossible you are left with the improbable" - I don't believe Bessler for a moment just got lucky one day - his solution came to him in a dream - his subconscious was working on the problem 24/7, but he had prepared his mind.

But to do that he first had to know the right question to ask ! - often knowing the right question is harder than knowing the correct answer - I believe that question was how to transfer a greater quantum of momentum between mass interactions i.e. the holy grail of complete momentum transfer as I've been speculating - you have to bookend this within Besslers context - he knew about momentum & force, not about Kinetic Energy or capacity to do Work as we know it.

Somehow his subconscious mind made a link to some mechanical action that allowed the accumulation of momentum when he wanted it - it is very likely that action is hidden in plain sight on the toy's page - especially if we consider he drew the first 5 items first (it's likely in there) then added the spinning top as an after thought.

Seems simple enough to emulate doesn't it - all we have to do is prepare the mind i.e. eliminate the impossible, figure out the right question to ask, & sleep on it so the subconscious can make the connection for us ;7)

[Art]

.

"Seems simple enough to emulate doesn't it - all we have to do is prepare the mind i.e. eliminate the impossible, figure out the right question to ask, & sleep on it so the subconscious can make the connection for us ;7)"


Hi Fletcher , - well put ! .

I figure all we really need to add to the above is some g whizz as the prime mover , - ie as in "GeeWhizz that's where it was all this time - how come I missed that ?"

: )

.

[daxwc]

Great last post Fletcher and where the forum is at now. Members who have been around a long time have noticed the forum’s preconceived modern notions of a religious person of that era have changed. I think it is a more healthy outlook; subjects like he could be an alchemist and a religious person at the same time.

My opinion is it is important to remember who Bessler says he became.
"I was able to study many very secret writings and
interesting sources of wisdom. I had the help of good scholars to
show me the difference between good and bad learning, and so
was eventually able to become successively a Cleric, a Doctor
and finally a Mathematician."

When I started this quest I had no idea how intelligent Bessler was. I thought he was a man who just stumbled on or worked through to a real perpetual motion machine; my perception of him has changed. There is a reason he was sent away from his family for studying when he was wee.

[daanopperman]

Hi Fletcher ,

Yes , pinned to the background is the connection from the T bar on the pendulum to the post supporting the wheel . If you make a sine wave for the oscillation of the con rod on the wheel axel , the sine wave can change in frequency , but not in amplitude . A pendulum swing will not change in frequency , but it will change in amplitude swinging freely .
Both the sine waves complimentary for most of a cycle of the wheel , but for a short while where the pendulum is still in the positive side of the sine wave , the wheel axel crank pin has started to go negative , it is here where a massive back kick will try to reverse the wheel , all depending of the mass of the 2 components .
In the pendulum drawings , JB. have the T bar , with added weights on the ends . These weights cannot effect the pendulum at all for they balance the pendulum , it can only effect the amplitude or swing height .
If this T bar top bar is not very rigid , it can store energy on both sides of the pendulum , so you don't need any energy storing device .
The kick back action , will , if the connecting rod is in the correct position on the wheel axel , lift the wheel support beam up in one halve of a rotation and force it back down in the second halve of rotation .

[daxwc]

daanopperman in a way the Tee Bar is a type of flywheel or should I say could do what a flywheel would do over a very small angle degree. Bessler says it is for smoothing out power. Maybe he just didn't want the brick load demonstration moving in short blasts of variable speeds. It would be most notable on this demonstration that the power output was not steady.

[ovyyus]

Bessler says it is for smoothing out power.

I thought Bessler said the pendulums were a speed governor.

[Dunesbury]

Is power related to speed?

[ovyyus]

Speed is not power.

[Dunesbury]

Power is related to speed?
Pendulums govern speed, then also govern power, or rate wheel does work?
Faster wheel not more powerful than slower wheel?
On wheel ouput page, power is
"Horse power can be calculated if we know how much weight is lift, how far it is lifted, and the time needed to lift the weight. "

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index. ... eel_Output

Is power and speed not related? Maybe I don't understand.