Gartner & Borlach inspected, called 'hoax'

[MrVibrating]

In AP Bessler admits that one summer he was laid up with a serious head injury, and received a surprise visit one morning, before he had recovered, from Gartner, Borlach and an an-named third person with them.

Flustered, his assistant, also named Bessler, showed them to his machine. They spent some undisclosed amount of time inspecting it, before leaving, satisfied that it was a hoax, animated via a hollowed-out support post, as later portrayed in Borlach's etching (much to Bessler's chagrin).

Following this revelation in AP, Bessler seems to make much mitigation in the way of this earlier wheel, espousing his later, more recent designs as much superior to it - especially, taunting Wagner that he'd have a harder time refuting these later wheels over the earlier ones.

This almost seems to read as an admission that Gartner & Co. had indeed called his bluff, but that somehow he'd recovered his dignity and honour by actually building a machine that he was confident would pass any scrutiny or challenge... unlike the one Gartner and Borlach inspected.




Is there a consensus here on this episode? Because it looks for all the world like his earlier one-directional works were exposed as a fraud. But then somehow he made up for it by discovering real PM with the bi-directional designs.

Which of course is completely at odds with what, til now, i'd considered to be the consensus - that the two-way wheels were just an improvement of the one-way ones. This apparent admission that Gartner and Borlach really saw what they claimed, totally pisses all over that bonfire..

If they really did see a fake wheel, but nonetheless got the wrong end of the stick, then what was it doing there in Bessler's house?

If i was claiming to have a real PM machine, the last thing i'd be seen dead (or even half-dead) with is a fake one...

[Fletcher]

Hi .. it reads to me that Gartner et al inspected the wheel & promptly left the house - I assume that Besslers assistant (I assume his brother Gottfried) was in attendance at all times & that they did not inspect the internal workings.

Bessler says 'let's assume they got the wrong end of the stick' (subject to translation) in his rebuttal - I take the 'wrong end of the stick' to mean the claim of hollowed out supports etc but I'm not sure 'wrong end of the stick' is an exact translation - it is not an admission that they actually saw a hollowed out support or a manual means to turn the wheel, as Borlach portrayed.

It is IMO just acknowledging that they did have the wrong conclusion - but this is hard to quantify without knowing the details of what Gartner saw & what tests he did while viewing the wheel to form that conclusion - perhaps someone knows these details ?

[AB Hammer]

Human nature tends to be like, if you go looking and expecting a fraud? That is what you will see. Despite what really was shown. Like in religion. If you go expecting a miracle? In your mind you will see a miracle. If their belief is so engrained as to not accept what they are looking at? They can see and still not believe despite the proof.

[John Collins]

There are so many reasons to dismiss Gartner, Borlach and Wagner's theory about Bessler's wheel - too many to go into here, but remember, Karl the Landgrave only agreed to support the sale of the first wheel after having been allowed to inspect the interior. That was a condition of the agreement and no one doubts Karl's integrity or scientific knowledge.

JC

[rasselasss]

I could never dismiss Andreas Gartner's witness statement with "slight of hand"...he was a very clever man and nobodys fool,some of his inventions are still in existence today ...see link..scroll down to btm.of the page..

[rasselasss]

http://www.design-is-fine.org/post/6901 ... clock-1690

[MrVibrating]

There are so many reasons to dismiss Gartner, Borlach and Wagner's theory about Bessler's wheel - too many to go into here, but remember, Karl the Landgrave only agreed to support the sale of the first wheel after having been allowed to inspect the interior. That was a condition of the agreement and no one doubts Karl's integrity or scientific knowledge.

JC

My impression is that Karl inspected the later, improved (apparently real) wheel; the design that Bessler was so confident about in his retorts to Wagner.

While Gartner saw some earlier design.

The thing is, if the driving principal is as simple as Bessler and Karl attest (so simple that a carpenter's boy could replicate after a quick examination), then someone of Gartner's skill should easily have grasped it, and verified with his own copies.

As Rasselasss notes above, this would've been well within his abilities.

For similar reasons it's hard to dismiss his assertions to have discovered the aforementioned mode of trickery.

@Fletch - it just looks like the only question the 'wrong end of the stick' comment could pertain to is Bessler's reasons for having a fake wheel set up.

Perhaps he had perfectly innocuous reasons. Maybe it was some kind of decoy or double bluff to protect the genuine IP. Albeit one seriously prone to backfire.

All i know is, the one person who actually got to do the one thing we all dream of being able to do - cold call Bessler's house and inspect his wheel in situ - quickly satisfied himself that it was a simple ruse.

Surely if he'd found anything more interesting, the visit might've had a different outcome? He'd have retracted his criticisms, or just plagiarised it if he couldn't bring himself to do the honourable thing? Wanton vicious sabotage of Bessler's reputation seems an unlikely motivation, had the device shown any real novelty...

[Fletcher]

"Wrong end of the stick" - was that a literal translation ? - does that mean different things to different people in different countries seaking different laguages ?

When I was a kid the example given to me was picking up a stick from the fire by the burning end - I take that to mean what you see is about right but you have it backwards.

[MrVibrating]

Yes that's pretty much my understanding too.

However, unless he's trying to imply that what Gartner saw was an out-bound transmission system, by which the wheel could power a handle concealed in the next room, for some reason.. it rather looks like he's trying to wriggle out after being caught red-handed... it's a red-faced "um, this isn't what it looks like".

When of course by far the most likely explanation, given the subject matter, is that it was exactly what it looked like...

[jim_mich]

Concerning the "Wrong end of the stick" ... when you ponder Bessler's words, why don't you go back and translate the original to see what Bessler actually said???

John Collin's AP, part one, chapter 38...

Let's for the moment assume that Gartner had genuinely got hold of the wrong end of the stick. Well, his ...

Original German AP, part one, chapter XXXVIII...

Gesetzt, daß Gärtner sich gefaßt Ein falsh [falsch] Concept, wohlan so ...

Word for word translation of AP, part one, chapter 38/XXXVIII...

Suppose, that Gärtner himself composed a false Concept, well_then so ...

There is no mention of a "wrong end of the stick". That seems to be some sort of phrase injected by John Collin's translator.

Just to be clear, I'm not knocking JC's translations. For the most part they are rather good. But sometimes they contain errors that makes me say "Huh?"

Then you guys ruminate on them, without understanding or knowing the original wording.

[triplock]

The phrase ' wrong end of the stick ' actually derives from the fact that young boys cannot help but poke cow pats or dog poo with a snapped off branch or twig. If there's something disgusting to do, a boy will have a go !

Clearly, after poking the ground, you do not want to grab the wrong end of the stick as that twig is offered to your equally grubby mate !

Chris

[rasselasss]

There is no doubt in my mind,that a clever person can look at something and say "Ah"..i see..,and by determination can overturn established beliefs which go against the grain,over here this week our City Father's finally recognise the eminence of John Stewart Bell...

[rasselasss]

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/quantum-p ... ll-epr.htm

[Fletcher]

Original German AP, part one, chapter XXXVIII...

Gesetzt, daß Gärtner sich gefaßt Ein falsh [falsch] Concept, wohlan so ...

Word for word translation of AP, part one, chapter 38/XXXVIII...

Suppose, that Gärtner himself composed a false Concept, well_then so ...

Seems pretty clear MrV - 'wrong end of the stick' (as we know it to mean) is not exactly what Bessler said by reading jim_mich's literal translation - more like supposing Gartner deliberately putting out a false statement (for whatever reason).

[johannesbender]

very interesting topic , does anyone know if this
was after or before wagner's criticism ,those he wrote which , eventually lead to a back and forth between himself and bessler ?

jb