Priority Claim

[rlortie]

Chris,

You are over stepping your bounds! and your word.

To state: "Perpetual motion simply isn't possible" will put you in the history books with "If people were meant to fly, they would have been born with wings", "The earth is flat" "Man will never be able to travel faster than 45 miles per hour, as he will not be able to catch his breath" etc...

Will Rogers famous quote; "If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!"

There are only two ways to argue with woman and armchair theorists, neither one of them works!

It is comments made here that remind me of another quote; "There are people who can write but cannot read! If they could read, they would not write the crap they do!"

Now will you please, pull in your horns, climb off the soap box and give it a rest!

Ralph

[triplock]

Oh Ralph, but it's fun playing in the mud when it's raining :)

Fair enough boss. I'll leave the kids to their train set.

See you later ladies . I've been called in as its late ..
Chris

[Ed]

Ralph, apparently Chris isn't ready to invoke his patented "draw a line under this and move on". That concept is reserved only for him and applies when he is tired of what other people are saying. In the meantime, he keeps peddling his wieners. ;-)

[FunWithGravity2]

Frank,
You had started with physical experiments a few years ago on pendular comcepts. Do you have a real world platform for playing with your ideas ?

[rlortie]

Chris,

It may be fun playing in the mud when it's raining, but if you want to dance you must pay the band! With each splash of mud that lands on the people around you, you loose a portion of your reputation, integrity and demeanor.

Ed,

I do not know if this relates or not, but I have always liked it:

A farmer raised and processed hogs, He set up a hot dog stand on the corner of the main road and his driveway.

Dreaming of some day having a franchise business with hot dog stands all over the world, he sent his son to college to gain knowledge in running such a business.

In the meantime he invests in putting up more signs and renting billboards. His business is escalating and are high, the son comes home from college and informs his dad that he should not be investing his capital in advertizing, the country is in a state of depression.

So the farmer stops paying rental on the billboards, takes down his signs. A couple of months later, he writes his son a letter. He wrote: "you were right son, I took down the signs and my business has dropped to almost nothing, we are indeed in a recession.

Ralph

[Grimer]

Now there seems to be a lull in the proceedings I'll take the opportunity to make a post on topic.



The above image is a screen shot from Tarsier79's gpm.wm2d sim.
It shows the state of the pendulums after the second impact. As you can see the pendulums have reset perfectly, albeit in a stationary position. This position is maintained for 7 seconds.

If the SP and CP were locked together at that point one would have a perfectly balanced beam, but a completely stationary beam, ergo, no Ersatz gravity energy.
Laithwaite's movement of mass has be achieved but there is no conversion of Newtonian gravity energy into Ersatz gravity energy (angular momentum).

However, based on the ideas posted here and here I believe these simple modifications to the original design will result in generation of Ersatz gravity energy on a continous pulsed basis.

If I'm right, and there is sim confirmation as I believe probable, then an immeasurably important scientific breakthrough has been made. People might like to think about what happens next and how the concepts can be extended to the Milkovic and the Bessler wheel which work with what one might describe as "soft" impact.

If I'm wrong - well - it won't be the first time, will it. :-)

[Dunesbury]

The difference I see is the farmer's stand actually had hot dogs.

[Grimer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUmAbi0Vm4

[daxwc]

Ralph:

There are only two ways to argue with woman and armchair theorists, neither one of them works!

Ralph you seem to forget Triplock has never built anything. He is an armchair theorist himself so cannibalizing his own should be fair game.

Ralph: Chris, You are over stepping your bounds! and your word.
Triplock: Fair enough boss. I'll leave the kids to their train set.

Don’t think I really want to know; I will just let my imagination run wild as it might be more conceptually restrained than the truth.



Hmm... I wonder, curiosity is going to kill this cat.

[rlortie]

Dax,

You are correct, Chris readily admits he does not build. He sends his ideas to me for evaluation. Some I freely admit are worthy of farther research and a possible build, I do not get excited because before I can get a list of materials wrote up, he sends either another design or an update! This is not to be misconstrued as each update adds more innovation to the over all picture. Cannibalizing his own is be fair game. If he posts it on the forum it is up for grabs!

You may consider him just another "armchair theorist" but he does put forth constructive ideas, gets off his ass and pushes his innovative abilities.

"You are over stepping your bounds! and your word"

implies that Chris gave me his word that he was no longer going to post and steer clear of the forum. But the addiction experienced by a lot of us was stronger than his will power, and he could not step away.

Ralph

[Grimer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUmAbi0Vm4

So what's with the accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, eh?

Well, it makes a good GPM signature tune, particularly the eliminate the negative bit.

Allowing the compound pendulum to keep all its gravity potential gain by use of a one way clutch accentuates the positive bit.

With the Mark 3 design the rise of the simple pendulum as it passed through 6 o'clock on its second drop led to a loss of gravity potential. So preventing this loss by allowing the Mark 5 escapement IP pendulum to fall back to a stop at 6 o'clock eliminates the negative bit.

Because the IP pendulum and its one way clutch don't require significant mass, only enough to provide stiffness, negligible energy is lost to the system by its fall back.

The feedback of positional information by the IP has an equivalent effect to raising the drop point of the simple pendulum.


This whole process can be illustrated by a simple example using a familiar toy, the yo-yo.

If a yo-yo is allowed to fall with the end of the string held a fixed height the the Newtonian Gravity (NG) potential is slowly transduced into Ersatz Gravity (EG) potential. We have achieved what Bessler and Keenie achieved but with a rather important difference. When the yo-yo hits the floor we have used up all our NG. Moreover it is difficult to harvest EG energy from a yo-yo falling relative to us.

The solution is to raise the end of the string as the yo-yo "falls" relative to the rising end of the string but remains stationary relative to us.

This is precisely what the escapement action of the IP achieves.

=======================================

Can things really be that simple?

Bessler thought they were which is why he was so paranoid.

So now all you enthusiastic builders can retreat to your garages and see who can win the Nobel Prize for being the first to demonstrate pulse harvesting from the gravitational spring which "droppeth from heaven like the gentle rain".

[Grimer]

...
But the addiction experienced by a lot of us was stronger than his will power
...

That's why we're called addicts. ;-)

[Fletcher]

Grimer .. can you post up a series of step pictures please ?

I need to follow thru accurately the progression of major events & interactions that you are seeing in your minds eye to close the loop - then I can check them against my own internal 'replay' & see if I can sim it for you to see how close to sim reality you are.

[Grimer]

The above diagram illustrates the essential reasoning.

Green shows the sim screen shot which was shown previously.

Red shows the position the beam would have taken had it been fitted with a one way clutch at the centre and not allowed to drop. The pendulum which takes the impact is rigidly connected to the beam frame.

The differences in height are qualitative and for purposes of illustration.

Without the IP the simple pendulum will swing past 6 o'clock and rise up losing Newtonian gravity till it reaches the rigid pendulum. It will therefore impart less energy to the CP than if a rigid pendulum had been at 6.

Black shows the simple pendulum the black SP after striking the IP which is rigid in the clockwise direction. It bounces back higher than it did in the Green case.

So the paths of the CP and SP must cross.

There are three possible outcomes.

1. the CP will capture the SP and carry on round clockwise to the reset position with the energy of the balanced beam being bled off. This outset achieves the aim of the exercise.

2. the SP captures the CP and carries on round counter-clockwise. This achieves the same object since we don't care whether our wheel goes CW or CCW. We can extract energy from wheel motion in either direction.

..... and of course there is the third possibility which at first sight seems to be a show stopper. It is this:

3. The capture leads to the beam coming to a dead halt as in the Green case. No motion after impact means no rotation to the reset point and no possibility of bleeding off energy.

Though this third outcome seems to summon us back to the drawing board it doesn't. A capture as opposed to an elastic encounter implies energy being lost in heat etc. Therefore extra energy is being generated albeit not in usable form so the Point of Principle is proved.

Once I'd got over having kittens thinking I'd jumped the starting gun a second time I realised it was an example of Asby's Law of Requisite Variety. There's a loss of within batch variance. However, I won't go into that now.

[Fletcher]

Sorry Grimer - I need to see start & end pics with important stages inbetween.

I need to see all structures & have them labelled clearly - btw, what is an IP ? (a ...something... pendulum).

I am going to attempt to sim your drawings, as exactly as I can - I don't want to interpret anything.

There may be some things I can not do with the sim program so then we'll need to discuss work-around alternatives, if there are any.