Mv<>mV

[jim_mich]

Grimmer, concerning Entropy, you are using the wrong terminology. As the temperatures merge into ambient, the entropy increases, the disorder increases.

From Google:

en·tro·py
&#712;entr&#601;p&#275;/

noun

1.
Physics
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.

2.
lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
"a marketplace where entropy reigns supreme"

Entropy is at its maximum when all available differences of temperature have been used up.

The word you should be using is 'ectropy', which is the measure of energy available in a system to do work.

So where did the energy from given out by the Stirling come from?

It came from the difference in temperature. It came from the Entropy of the system.

This statement would be correct is you replaced the word 'Entropy' with the word 'Ectropy'.

You seem to have confused these two opposite terms.

Think of Ectropy as the amount of energy available to exit out from the system.
Entropy is the amount of energy that has been entirely used up and no longer available to do work.

Jim from Michigan

[Grimer]

Quite right. Many thanks Jim. Your prompt response has given me time to correct that cock-up before the 24 hour shutters come down.

A far more egregious error than spelling my name wrong, eh! ;-)

Again, many thanks.

[bluesgtr44]

Getting gravity to produce work is not the problem. Gravity produces plenty of work on a large scale in the form of the tides.

The problem is to get the work down to a human scale such as a Bessler Wheel or Keenie for example.

You're giving too much credit to gravity as far as the "work" done by tidal activity. I believe our sun and the rotation of the earth has more to do with that. Heating and then cooling......

I can prove that gravity can do "work".....measurable work! What I cannot do it is perpetuate it, in and of itself.

Show me something along the lines of what Bessler accomplished...if one is to believe that his demonstrations were the work of gravity perpetuating the motion, that is. Something that can rapidly increase it's force and acceleration and yet have a good bit left over to do work outside of the ability to simply.......perpetuate it's motion.

Sometimes I think many are looking for that little trick, so to speak.....and it really seems obvious that what he had was much, much more than just that. This could very well have some limitations, much in the same manner as the atwood application. Once it reaches that threshold.....well, we know about the atwood.


Steve

[Grimer]

"Tidal power is taken from the Earth's oceanic tides; tidal forces are periodic variations in gravitational attraction exerted by celestial bodies. These forces create corresponding motions or currents in the world's oceans. Due to the strong attraction to the oceans, a bulge in the water level is created, causing a temporary increase in sea level. When the sea level is raised, water from the middle of the ocean is forced to move toward the shorelines, creating a tide. This occurrence takes place in an unfailing manner, due to the consistent pattern of the moon’s orbit around the earth.[5] The magnitude and character of this motion reflects the changing positions of the Moon and Sun relative to the Earth, the effects of Earth's rotation, and local geography of the sea floor and coastlines."

[ovyyus]

Power harnessed from tides is at the expense of momentum, not gravity.

[bluesgtr44]

"Tidal power is taken from the Earth's oceanic tides; tidal forces are periodic variations in gravitational attraction exerted by celestial bodies. These forces create corresponding motions or currents in the world's oceans. Due to the strong attraction to the oceans, a bulge in the water level is created, causing a temporary increase in sea level. When the sea level is raised, water from the middle of the ocean is forced to move toward the shorelines, creating a tide. This occurrence takes place in an unfailing manner, due to the consistent pattern of the moon’s orbit around the earth.[5] The magnitude and character of this motion reflects the changing positions of the Moon and Sun relative to the Earth, the effects of Earth's rotation, and local geography of the sea floor and coastlines."

Yep, pretty much covered that part.......

I believe our sun and the rotation of the earth has more to do with that. Heating and then cooling......

Sometimes I think that if there is a sort of perpetuity when viewing the universe......on earth, gravity is the preventive cause of achieving this within our own atmosphere. Kind of like it was by design.....on purpose.


Steve

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Power harnessed from tides is at the expense of momentum, not gravity.

Ovyyus,

I am not sure about that, the Moon has managed to keep up with the Earth and the Earth with the Sun, and if they lose momentum they gain PE and thus greater Kinetic energy from gravity inputs when accelerated again. If the moon is moving away from the earth it must have greater kinetic input from gravity to travel the extra distance, so has the moon lost momentum now the moon travels a greater distance.

Also the pull on the fluid from the Sun and the moon would still be there if you use it or not.

[ovyyus]

I am not sure about that...

Learning increases knowledge. Believing decreases knowledge.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Ovyyus,

Learning increases knowledge. Believing decreases knowledge.

Yes I would have to agree with that, so you should not believe everything you read. I read that the Earth's spin is thought to be slowing down, but to blame it on the tides alone I am not sure about when there are many other factors, of which the expansion of the Earth is just one of the many factors and the natural adjustment of forces another, you seem to believe that the momentum first given to the Planets was enough to carry them this far with no added energy input, if that is the case then there could be no natural adjustment to stop the system falling into chaos, I seem to think orbits are forced and work is done every time mass is accelerated and not totally reliant on the initial momentum given to the planets, this is not a belief this is the way my thoughts have accumulated the knowledge I have learnt thus far, and put into order. Given the very very small window of opportunity we humans have been given to study whats going on in the Universe I will keep a open mind.

[honza]

And the one I have joined is made by Rosh Inovation. I went to Austria to inspected their miniature unit - proof of concept. I have then became member and paid deposit for 5kw output unit. This is based on floatation but the maths do not suport the idea that flotation produces OU. I suspect that it comes from the gearing between the flotation output and the alternator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... sno0cxzd0I

Gents, I just want to clarify that in relation to the above I have not only seen the unit working but I have actually examined the machine in detail and took my own measurements, which provided me with proof of OU.
So I am not just a "believer".
If you are interested to do the same I am sure it is possible. If you contact GIAI you will be given opportunity to come and see the machine and take your own measurements.

The thing that is not clear to me is where the energy comes from. Most of the GIAI members seem to believe it comes from the flotation part of the machine. That is a possibility because the conventional calculations I am able to do are not comprehensive of the entire situation. For example the water pushed out from cylinders by air creates reactive propulsion. Also it is not moving in a stationary water. The cylinders are actually moving in a revolving "river" of water.
However, the OU may come from elsewhere. And the similarity with other claimed OU systems (that I haven't verified) is in the input been high torque / low rpm which is geared up to high rpm low torque. And that made me realize the possibility of Grimer's Mv<>mV been a possible key to it.
Cheers

[ovyyus]

...you should not believe everything you read.

Especially true when you don't understand what you read. Some people don't understand what they read because it's too hard, some might reject what they read because it conflicts with a held superstition or belief. Choosing not to understand, for whatever reason, makes a closed mind.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Ovyyus,

Especially true when you don't understand what you read. Some people don't understand what they read because it's too hard, some might reject what they read because it conflicts with a held superstition or belief. Choosing not to understand, for whatever reason, makes a closed mind.

Agreed.

All though there are times you have to make a judgement call.
I read that the moon was hollow this I could not understand its gravity would be to weak.

I maybe have been suckered in by the expanding earth theory? there are two sides to the argument, both side seem to agree that the Continents have drifted apart. I saw a very interesting video that showed lines on the oceans floor on what was supposed to be google earth "it looked very convincing I must add" to debunk the theory on another video they ask two crack pots where the extra mass came from, and the guys did not seem to know, and there answers where less than convincing, the answer I would have gave is the swirling supper heated mass loses its density and expands pushing the plates apart, so the earths gravity would remain the same. Long story short if the earth expanded to double its size I would expect the earths spin to slow down to half its speed. This may have been a bad Judgement call on my part but the theory's remain, it appear the Continents have drifted apart, and if the earth did not expand where or what did the Continents drift into?

I will try and find the video that shows the stretch mark and post the links.

Sorry Grimer for interupting your thread.

[Art]

Hi Honza,

Very interesting - I'm impressed !

Your belief in the overunity of this device based on a personal examination and backed up by a commitment to purchase is the type of belief that is contageous ! : )

Looking at the video my belief that the energy is coming from atmospheric pressure woke me up at 3.00am the night before last . Not the first time belief has kept me awake and hopefully not the last . I believe belief is the great motivator, that is if you believe in the right things : )

In this machine I believe that every litre of air pumped into each reservoir at atmospheric pressure plus the pressure of the head of water , will expand to be more than one litre volume as it rises in the water column. This is inevitable because as the pressure of the head of water reduces the volume of the gas will increase as a result of very well established laws.

As the volume of the gas increases, the buoyancy of the reservoir also increases and the force exerted on the upward movement of the system of buoyancy chambers also increases.

The difference in pressure at the bottom of the water column has very little to do with the volume of water in the tank but everything to do with the height of the water column because of atmospheric pressure .

The atmospheric pressure at the top of the water column is significantly less then the pressure at the bottom of the column. It is the atmosphere that maintains this pressure difference !

As the air in the reservoirs increases the buoyancy and does work on the way up through the water column , the atmosphere is supplying the energy !

Based on this reasoning I believe one can predict that the water column will become cooler as the machine runs due to the expansion of the air in the reservoirs . Hmm that alone might help mitigate global warming somewhat : ) - If we can capture the heat produced by the pumps to compress the air in the first place that is.

I believe buoyancy force is gravity force turned on its head 180 degrees . Buoyant force has a vector upwards , gravity force's vector is downwards. Atmospheric pressure has a higher energy content the closer it is to the ground , ie the potential energy decreases as you go up . Which is just fine because buoyancy force just happens to want to go that way anyway and the excess energy released from the atmosphere can be used to do work .

Hope my belief here is correct ! : )

By the way , Approximately how much does it cost for a 5 kw machine ?

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Honza, Art,

Honza, what was the Gear Box ratio on top of the device.

Art, there generator looks way to small to be a 5kw generator.

Here was my sleep less nights

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5634

Edited, to save this forum anymore embarrassment and move it to fraud.

[honza]

Hi Art,
I have to thing it through but your analysis could be correct.
It fits to other info from the organizers - a power increase is accomplished by increasing the water column and not by widening the base. Rosh Innovation apparently built a much greater output size machine that is 25 m tool. They say it is not practical to go higher than that. For further power increase they do multiples of this unit.

The machine I have inspected and verified was a highly portable "proof of concept" demonstration unit 2m high. It used 4 shitty low efficiency compressors and had OU less then 50w on a generator producing ~300w.

The free 5kw output units produced for GIAI members will be 5.5m high. The design largely based on experiences gained with a similar size unit produced by Rosch and running already few years in Sarajevo where GIAI members inspected it and verified (not inspected by me personally but I trust the competence of GIAI in this regard / they used optical cable viewer to inspect all inside for any hidden source of power).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1 ... detailpage

The 5 kw unit will be all made in Switzerland and Germany (with the exemption of a compressor which may come from Japan because they apparently perfected these and mass produce them for bublers in their extensive aquaculture industry). It will be supplied in a kit form and the price tag includes the cost for workshop attendance where we will be trained in control functions, assembly, maintenance....
Price ~ 15k Euro incl. VAT tax. Batteries / power converter we have to get ourselves (depends how one wishes to utilize the unit).

Cheers