Mayday! Mayday!!!

[raj]

Here we have the same concept, using two wheels, a small one rotating at TWICE the speed inside a larger drum wheel, with weights swinging in a predetermined path on rigid arms pivoting on both wheels.

So I give you the full description:

1. is a drum wheel ( four vertical planes in the same drum wheel).
2. is an inner rim of half the diameter of drum wheel(1)
3. is an inner wheel of half the diameter of drum wheel (just like 2) resting/rolling/rotating at twice the speed on inside of outer rim of drum wheel(1)
4. are pivots at 45 degrees intervals on inner rim(2).
5. is an inner rim of half the diameter of inner wheel(3).
6. are pivots at 90 degrees intervals on inner rim(5).
7. are swinging rigid arms, one on each pivot on inner rim(2) and two on each pivot on inner rim(5).
8. are cylindrical weights swinging/moving on pair of rigid arms(7), one on pivot on inner rim(2) and one on pivot on inner rim((5).

The drum wheel is the drawings are shown to rotate clockwise.


Raj

[raj]

Clearer drawings???

[Blitzbrain]

Hello Raj,

I have flipped through this thread and see, that there are many theoretical posts on what might be the best design...

Have you ever started to build only one of them?

I want to encourage you to do so. Theory might be nice and mind thrilling... but where the rubber meets the road... this is when you build one.

You know why I want to encourage you...? Building a wheel is so different from thinking about it. It is a very creative and also interesting process. You also learn a lot about yourself. Just start with a 18mm circular shaped MDF board with a ball beared axis and then... let it turn before your eyes... and then think of mechanisms to place on it...

I started this a few years ago... even if you don't immediately find the solution... one thing is for sure... you learn more about turning wheels, gravity and your great ideas than you will just by thinking about them...

Some of my attempts:

http://youtu.be/x9LpWm0Qses
http://youtu.be/ZaGH3DZa1EE
http://youtu.be/MYNRu2fDgRQ

Once you have been there, nobody may have a philosophic, physical or engeneering talk on your ideas... you experienced them yourself... make your own mistakes and learn continouusly

You also can come to the point, where you want to burn the wheel and bury it in the deepest hell... but one thing then is for shure... you will not repeat thinking again about that last mechanism you recently built ...

I see many in this forum who just blow hot air around... but there are the few, who already build one wheel, one or more mechanisms and who experienced the harsh reality, that their potential... 'almost tomorrow...or next week... or in december... for sure (maybe) running device' started off turning well and then... after a few revolutions .. stopped...

http://youtu.be/FFcUTgdNBVA

...or not stopped... but ran differently

http://youtu.be/vVT69Pde4Zo

It takes a while until you learn to see this as a success, not a failure...

Look at John collins... he tried this for almost 30 years... and is not giving up!
And it took Bessler 10 years to find the solution. And I presume that (me looking into the MT bok)... he had built several models, that did not work...

P.S.: The last animated drawing from path_finder comes very close to some very important claims from Bessler about his wheel.

[raj]

Hello Blitz,
It was a pleasure reading your input.
Thanks.

Path_Finder's animation has shown positive signs of a RUNNER, but both PF and me have tried several build attempts of the prerequisite part in this concept, the speed doubler mechanism, and we have both failes to come up with one that can be used to build a complete wheel prototype.

In the past two years, I have tried to simplify the concept/design, making sure the central idea in the design is maintained.
My last drawings show a simplified version of my original concept, which I think will achieve the same motion as PF's animation.

My apology for the delay to reply to your comments.

In the couple of days, I seem to have found even better simplication of my original gravity wheel concept, which should behave exactly as PF's animation, BUT without the need of a SPEED doubler mechanism.

Building this new simplified version of my gravity wheel concept testing prototype would be easier. I hope so.

New version drawing/s and descriptions will be posted in due course.

Raj

[raj]

The central idea in this long running thread has been my Gravity Wheel concept, so plausibly backed by Path_Finder's animation.

See my original gravity wheel drawing and PF's animation almost three years old, again, if you please.

The original concept consisted of a drum wheel and an inner wheel of half its diameter on one and same axle, the ineer wheel was to rotate at twice the speed of the drum wheel.

This concept looked good and several forum members lengthily discussed this idea, and we have a large contribution by PF.
The stumbling block, as I have mentioned before, has been our failure to build a speed doubler mechanical as the most important part of the design.

The third drawing shows a way to bypass the need of a speed doubler mechanism.

Otherwise everything is similar to my original concept/drawing.
Here we have a drum wheel(1) with an inner whee(2)l of half its diameter, on axle(3), resting/rolling on rim inside drum wheel. Short diametrically opposite rigid arms(4) fixed at 45 degrees intervals on inner side of drumwheel. Cylindrical weights(7) connected to rigid arms(5) pivoting on rigid arms(4) and to rigid arms(6) pivoting on axle(3).

This new wheel design is expected to rotate clockwise.

From my point of view, I see the wheel rotating in the same manner as PF's animation above.
If??? that would be so, then building this new design would be simpler, as there is no need of a speed doubler mechanism.

RaJ

[raj]

I have just thought about Bessler's clues.

It seems to me that my new design/drawing has a few things resembling some of Bessler's clues:

My drawing looks, in essence, conveying similar device to Bessler's :
1. MT55.
2. One side empty, one side full.
3. Wheels forming a figure '8'
4. Motion gained through swinging weights only.
5. Weight raising in a flash.

These are the only clues from a quick check.

Raj

[Blitzbrain]

Hello Raj,

Sorry to my late reply from me too... sometimes things pile up...

Let's have a look at the MT 55:

What I see ist the following:

There is a flywheel on the shaft = E (there is nothing in it...)
There is a gear mounted to the shaft, that is very little in comparison to the bigger gear on the second shaft. I presume it 6 times smaller, because the 3 levers A are hanging into horizontal spokes. The spokes on the second shaft are not straight, but 2 in an angle, one in 90° tho the shaft. These must be spokes, because the spoke on the left is positioned in a slot, thsat is to be seen.
The lever A is attached to the first shaft... I presume with a ratchet mechanism. Bessler had this one drawn in MT51. The six points ont the wheel B represtent the points, where the End of each spoke is positioned. The ratchet Levers A are seen in 3 positions being driven by the spokes.

Besslers intention to this wheel is to force shaft 1 by the additiional power of the flywheel, that is distributed to shaft 2 by the gear mechanism by the ratchet arms. He tried using the additional energy collected from the flywheel to move the mechanism.

Basically he also shows how to solve a velocity problem: By using gears.

In case of your attempt I have thought on your inner wheel needing to spin twice as fast as the outer wheel. Try to use some gears to do it: Make the inner shape of your outer wheel like a gear. Place a scond gear on a shaft that has half the diameter of your outer wheel right onto the gear shaped rim. Use a Belt on equally shaped wheels on each shaft to let the second wheel spin on ball bearings on the same shaft than the outer wheel... then you are there... The trick is to connect the wheels by gears... I am currently experimenting some sort of this technique with my own attempt of the wheel...

But it is important to use ball bearings for the shafts...

There is a very cool program for designing wooden gears from a guy in canada. His website is really cool. www.woodgears.ca

I spent hours exploring that.site.. he even shows, how to build woodworking machinery completely made from wood. And you can buy lots of plans and even the gear calculating software for only $26 there... I was quite inspired by that. I thought by being a trained cabinetmaker, I couldn't see many new things in a woodshop... but I was wrong...

That's from me so far... Good luck with your wheel design...

Kind regards form Germany

Sebastian

[cheors]

I think the principle is : slowly store energy extracted up near the center of rotation (shaft), and suddenly release far from the shaft.
It could be a secondary mover.
Remember the comments concerning a" prime mover". It means there is somewhere a "secondary mover"
Bessler shows many examples of that principle :
- MT56 , 57, 58, 59 (air and fins on the rim of the wheel),
- MT 76, 77, 78,79,80 ..... (bellows, water and fins)
- MT44, 45, 46 ,47 ,48, 49 (spheres)

- More interesting : MT28, MT29 (only mechanical parts)

It could be the main function of the wood stampers always present with the different wheels (testimonies)

Sorry for my poor english
.

[raj]

Thanks a lot Sebastian and Cheors.

food for thought!

Raj

[raj]

Cheors, your idea of a secondary mover seems very plausible.

If a primary mover has been stressed all along from the start, why wasn't it called just a 'mover'?

The idea of two movers working in tandem is thought provoking.

Raj

[cheors]

The heavy wood stampers could give to the wheel a boost at the right time and so keep the unbalance of the whole system.
The primary mover consists of weights, levers, ropes, springs inside the wheel.
How are they arranged is the big question

Just some thoughts

[cheors]

Why is there a box under the stampers ?

Fill it with something similar to MT55.

Delirium !!

[raj]

This looks much simpler.

Only springs have been added to the concept/drawing.

The drawing is relatively self-explanatory.

Raj

[Blitzbrain]

Hi Cheors,

No offence, but I think, you haven't understood the principle of the stampers in Besslers' wheel. Besslers wheel did produce energy. So much energy, that he needed means to keep the wheel at a constant pace. Therefore he had the stampers (and the two pendula). They were lifted by the axle and then dropped down into the box. This tool was commonly used to crush minerals up to dust quality. If Bessler didn't have some kind of 'brake' (energy consumption device) in his wheel, the wheel would have accelerated too much and the process of the Wheight distribution within the the wheel would have stopped.

Actually after that point the wheel would have become slower then and re-spark the principle again....

S'Gravesande wrote in his testimony when examining the wheel, that it was hard for him to stop the wheel once it was turning. So the masses involved had lots of power...

The addition of wehights on the outside rim and the centrifugal force added up into acceleration. Bessler found a way to stabilize it and one part of this were the stampers.

If he wuoldn't have done so, I presume, that the wheel might have acceleratet up to a certain point, then the mechanism would have failed, because somethhing inside did 'fall down' and this fallling down procedure was crucial to the wheel. After reaching the top speed, the wheel might have gotten slower up to the point, were the 'falling' could re-happen.

Bessler did not want his wheel to create irregular, uncontrolled motion..He was an organ builder by trade and with this used to high precision. This is why he used the stamps and the pendula on the sides... to get a continouus steady revolution with a constant rpm rate... not for driving the wheel...

KInd regards from Germany...

Sebastian

[ovyyus]

If he wuoldn't have done so, I presume, that the wheel might have acceleratet up to a certain point, then the mechanism would have failed...

Bessler demonstrated his wheel both free-running and attached to various optional loads.

Bessler attached his wheel to various optional loads (stampers, lifting a bucket, water screw) in order to demonstrate usable power output. He also demonstrated his wheel free-running and unloaded and it did not accelerate until it failed. Bessler's Kassel wheel turned at 26 RPM unloaded and 20 RPM when attached to the water screw load.

The pendulums depicted in Bessler's drawings were an optional add-on speed governor that was rarely (if ever) actually demonstrated.