Still without understanding?

[jim_mich]

From JC's AP page labeled as 353.

Matth.XV.v.16
“And are ye yet without understanding?�
Were I to reveal my art, the -- -- might enslave you.

My translation of page labeled 240 of JC's AP, which I assume to be pg 96 of Bessler's original AP.

Code: Select all

  Matth. XV. v. 16
Seid ihr Dań auch noch Unverständig          |Are you Dan, also still without_understanding
Wenn ich die Kunst entdeck’ inwendig,        |if I the art/craft discovered inside,
So mach’ der - - euch gebändig. [gebändigt]  |so make the [blank blank] you teach

Dan (from in the Bible) was a Hebrew patriarch, son of Jacob and Bilhah.
Genesis 49:17 -- Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse’s heels so that his rider falls backward.
Bessler was comparing Wagner to Dan from the Bible.

mach was a hard word to decipher. Maybe it should be macht, which means power/force/strength/might/mightiness/sway/grasp, but I don't think so.
mach from Google translate was of little help, it suggested it means carry or make.
mach (from Babylon.com) quoted it as a speed -or- manufacture; cause, bring about; accomplish; do, make

My problem was that 'make' didn't seem to make sense at first, until I dug deeper into last word ... gebändig.

The word gebändig is almost non-existent. It seems it should have a 't' added.
gebändigt (from Babylon.com) is defined as subdued, controlled, overcome -or- tame, domesticate, teach; subdue, defeat, capture; soften, weaken.

Then I spotted the word teach. It seems Bessler may have been telling Wagner to make/manufacture the [expletive] that you (Wagner) teach. This makes the most sense relative to the rest of AP.

In more complex English, Bessler seems to be asking Wagner...
Are you Dan (like from the Bible), who still does not understand?
If I (Bessler) discovered the invention/art (that is) inside (my wheel),
So you make/manufacture the f###ing (wheel) that you teach.

Bessler needed a word to rhyme with inwendig, which he found by using gebändig. This causes a problem with understanding his meaning, since 'teach' seems to be an obscure meaning of gebändigt. I can't confirm yet if Babylon.com is really correct with this 'teach' meaning. But if true, it causes these last lines to make a lot of sense.

Matthew 15, 11-20
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

[Fcdriver]

I would say he tones it down, or defeats it, not teach

[ovyyus]

Still without understanding.

[Oystein]

My research has found that:
The whole purpose of these lines is to give you information enough to fill in the two blanks. (It really doesn`t matter who teaches who what etc.) He means there are something that resembles the devil or something associated with the devil inside his wheel and the code that describes his wheel/mechanism!

The blank are blanks because they can have several/parallel notations/solutions. If the answer was just Teufel, he would have written Teufel, but since the solution to the riddle has several different notations/solutions he writes - - (two blanks) . Two letters/number or what ever you find will fit there. But the answer to the two blanks is never a single thing. That is the basis of - -.

You see, this page, and all the others pages with blanks are assignments, that the reader can solve on the way to "decode" the coded pages in the book.

Most of these methods has its basis explained in his little poem. That is mainly what the poem is about. Not so much about the actual workings of his wheel.

AP is basically a student-assignment.

It could also be used to prove the rights to the machine by applying all the notations of the - - and how to apply them.

[John Collins]

I'm not convinced that the blanks are open to your alternative explanation, Oystein. The word 'teufel' rhymes with the preceding end of line word so that limits the alternative words available. It also contains the alphanumeric codes to add up to the usual 5,50 etc. The several other blanks also do the same. To me he is just saying look at chapter 55, there are more codes to be found there - and there are. See my explanation at http://www.orffyreus.net/ Sorry for an external link to my other website but the explanation is too long to fit here.

JC

[jim_mich]

So let us play the game of fill-in-the-blanks...

Wenn = if (plain and simple, no question as to the meaning of this word)
ich = I (plain and simple translation: I, me, myself, in other words, Bessler)
die = the (can sometimes be used as a pronoun: which, they, who, he, she. But not in this case)
Kunst = art or craft (today were might use the word invention. Bessler is referring to his wheel)
entdeck = discovered (or light upon, detect, spot, discern, turn up. We might say invented.)
inwendig = inside (means inward, inwardly, interior)

So assembling these meanings into English, we could say:
If I the invention invented within,

This is the first part of an if-then statement. The next line continues...

So = so (plain and simple translation, no question. Same word in German and English)
mach = make (can also mean: manufacture, do. Or more obscure as: join, take)
der = the (this word is much like die. It can also be a pronoun: which, who, that, he
- - = blankity blank (a polite way to swear)
euch = you (can also mean: to you, yourself
gebändig [gebändigt] = ??? (please see long discussion below)

So what was Bessler's intended meaning of the last word... gebändig/gebändigt

I can't find any translation or meaning for gebändig. This, like in other places of Bessler's writings, the spelling is either wrong or more likely has changed over the last 300 years. The modern spelling is very likely gebändigt.

gebändigt has many words that it can be translated into, so picking and choosing which word was Bessler's intended meanings seemed at first rather difficult for me, until I assembled all possible meaning together in one list…

gebändigt = tamed, subdued, restrained, curbed, harnessed, controlled, overcome, domesticate, teach, defeat, capture, soften, weaken.

The meaning of gebändigt reminds me of what is done to young horses. All of the above words associated with gebändigt describe the taming/training/teaching of an animal such as a horse. The process involves forcing your will upon the animal. Thus the meaning becomes clear. Note that Wagner was a young man at the university where teaching was done.

So assembling these meanings into English, Bessler could say:
So make the blankity blank you teach.

Thus we have an if/then statement by Bessler, where Bessler says:
If I invented the invention within (my wheel),
then go make/manufacture the blankity blank (wheel) that you teach about.

As far as codes hidden within Bessler's writing, I see none. I think Bessler had enough on his hands that he didn't try to imbed some secret cypher into his words.

Bessler words become very clear once you take the time to understand the meaning of the words that he actually wrote.

Can the "degreed professionals" translate these lines into anything different than I’ve done?

Translating is much more than just converting a sentence word for word. I don’t just do a 10 second Google translate, as I’ve been accused of doing. One must get inside the head of the writer, and understand his subject matter and where the writer is coming from and where his thoughts are heading to.

[Oystein]

John, it does have several meanings, also 55. You don`t have to believe my words now, but you will eventually. The others that have read my work see the blanks as one of the more beautiful solutions Bessler provided. It is also confirmed in other blanks, so it is really not up to debate with me. (Others may debate if they like).

You are correct about the "zu" on the title-page/s though. Because zu is a correct word and has two letters! Though it serves several practical purposes and confirmations in that special context.

You will find that Bessler also spelled "teufel" in different ways in AP, you might wonder why, but is is for some of the same reasons. Teufel is NOT a single constant value. Or else he would just write the word itself in one of it`s forms. So which form would you choose to use on the blanks on the last page?

As in other places. It has a special reason to be placed just where it is and using 2 lines ( line = variable) So does other blanks in AP.

blank blank = VL or 55 doesn`t really make any sense does it? "The VL might enslave you" What should that prove or show us? Does it solve anything on the page? etc. It only uses the method again that already is displayed openly two lines above, nothing more. There is always more than one thing to Besslers puzzles. And is must has practical meanings.

Even if you could somehow prove that all the other blanks in AP = 5 or 55 (they are not), I would not re-evaluate my documentation.

I say it again. It will be solved by the use of one of the methods mentioned in his poem. Even my mother understand the method when she see it. It is simple and beautiful and has its root in old Mysticism. Bessler will be widely know for this method and the implications on the pages where it apply.

To Jim, I am not with you at all on what you interpret into the page.

I am just telling what I know, but will not back it up with the evidence at the moment. I want to release all my work at once, so it has value as a complete work, containing fresh interesting information.

[Grimer]

...
I am just telling what I know, but will not back it up with the evidence at the moment. ...

That sounds like Trevor.

[Oystein]

If that is the way you want it? Then I have nothing more here to do at the moment. I tell alot of stuff from my research, and show pictures etc. and have clearly shown a picture of the WEB-site that is already built and will be released as a part of the release of what I call my lifes work, (because that it what it is). I have prepared a pre-release of the site where I would disclose a lot of basic methods to show how I work and proofs of hidden information etc. But I won`t get pushed by people like you. I work in my own paste and are looking for perfection, and that is about 5-10 hours a day for many years so we all (some day)can enjoy seeing the glory of Besslers hidden work in a professional manner. That is what I live for. If you can`t accept that I want to preserve my (lifes) work for a serious and complete presentation, then I will stop posting. I have no time to waste, especially if what I say is not even appreciated.

The forum decides. Just let me know!

[cloud camper]

Well it's certainly nice to have JM back posting again, continually striving to correct misperceptions of Bessler and getting back to enlightening the forum on the wonders of the Jim Mich principle!

We must understand that the vision shown by Jim in the Principle is what drives him to continue to keep us on the narrow path to Bessler nirvana.

The Vision is the important thing to grasp here. The Vision makes all the fabricated stories justified as they act as a shining beacon pointing to the truth. This is a selfless quest for the truth and since it is selfless, lies were sometimes necessary to keep the faithful from wavering.

And once we have the Vision, there is no further need of experts, physics or sticking to an accurate narrative. Jim is now the one expert that has any credibility!

The constant stories of runners operating under the Jim Mich Principle were required to create more time to work on more esoteric elements of the Plan, such as making room on the mantle for the Nobel Prize he was sure to be awarded.

Jim was so sure of his Principle that producing a working prototype became secondary to preparing patents, press releases and keeping everyone in line on the BW forum.

Jim just recently stated that he is one of the very few smart enough to understand a “motion� concept rather than a gravity driven one.

This is why the translations needed to be corrected and the Plan fully developed to insure total success!

Thank God Jim has the inner strength to keep presenting the Vision, no matter how many lies that takes!

[jim_mich]

The terms of use of the forum states

that you shall not:
1. Provide any Content or perform any conduct that may be unlawful, illegal, threatening, harmful, abusive, harassing, stalking, tortious, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, offensive, objectionable, pornographic, designed to or does interfere or interrupt this web site or any service provided, infected with a virus or other destructive or deleterious programming routine, give rise to civil or criminal liability, or which may violate an applicable local, national or international law;

Cloud camper is stalking me. His post is harassing toward me. His words are defamatory and libelous. His post is offensive to me and it does not in any way promote the concept behind the Besslerwheel.com website, which Scott states to be:

This web site strives to shed light on the Bessler mystery through an exchange of ideas among enthusiasts, dabblers, believers, skeptics, critics, and all who share a fascination with the "impossible."

Cloud camper is not exchanging ideas nor is he posting anything that sheds light upon the Bessler mystery. Cloud camper's posts have only one goal, and that is to defame and anger me, Jim_Mich, a highly regarded member of this forum since December 7th, 2003.

I think it is time for cloud camper to cease and desist his harassing behavior.

Sincerely,
Jim_Mich

[cloud camper]

A typical tactic of JM for keeping the peanut gallery inline. Yawn.

[ovyyus]

My words are my opinion. If you disagree - that's your problem, not mine.

I guess it's always been our problem :D

[MrTim]

From Cassell's:
-bändig ; adj. suffix. "-volume(d), in ... volumes"
(but I'd go with "tamed, subdued" myself. ;-)

As far as codes hidden within Bessler's writing, I see none. I think Bessler had enough on his hands that he didn't try to imbed some secret cypher into his words.

Sorry, have to disagree. You seriously underestimate the man and what he was capable of. AP is extremely well-constructed and designed to hide it's secrets. But, each to his own... ;-)

[Stewart]

My rocket out of here is almost ready (i.e. a new forum), but I can't go without a final attempt to address Jim's behaviour as exhibited in this topic.

Can the "degreed professionals" translate these lines into anything different than I’ve done?

Yes, they can translate it correctly.

Translating is much more than just converting a sentence word for word.

And yet that's all Jim is doing, as he demonstrates repeatedly that he does not understand English grammar, let alone German grammar. If he understood how English grammar works and why it's important then you'd see him attempting to apply grammar rules to the German text, which he doesn't.

I don’t just do a 10 second Google translate, as I’ve been accused of doing.

He shouldn't be using Google translate at all for this task.

One must get inside the head of the writer, and understand his subject matter and where the writer is coming from and where his thoughts are heading to.

Rubbish. Understanding the subject matter clearly helps, but pretending you understand the author and know what was going on in his head has no bearing on translating what is actually written on the page. This is just a pathetic excuse for someone who can't be bothered to learn the language, but wants to be able to get the translations to say what they want them to.

Let's look at the text currently being discussed:

Matth.XV. ℣. 16.
SeyD Ihr Dañ aVCh noCh VnVerstänDIg
Wenn ich die Kunst entdeck' inwendig/
So mach' der - - euch gebändig.

There is no evidence to suggest that the word "Dañ" has any connection to a character in the Bible. The only reason the 'D' is capitalised is because it is part of the chronogram (all capitalised roman numerals add up to the year 1717). The line above the 'n' is there as an abbreviation of 'nn', so the word is actually 'dann' and means 'then'.

Bessler was comparing Wagner to Dan from the Bible.

Jim just can't bring himself to use those all important words "I think" or "In my opinion". There is no evidence at all for Jim's statement of fact here, therefore it is only his own speculation. This type of misrepresentation of the truth falls well below that expected of a highly regarded forum member, in my opinion.

The line actually says, as we're all familiar with by now:
"Are you then also still without-understanding/ignorant"

Also, you can look up Matthew 15 in any Bible and you'll find no reference to a "Dan" anywhere there.

With the next two lines, although he struggled, Jim correctly identified most of the words in the end, but without a knowledge of grammar, he has no idea how to put them together.

The apostrophes are used to replace vowels so that they aren't sounded, and this is done for poetic metering purposes. So the text actually reads as follows:

Matth.XV. ℣. 16.
Seyd ihr dann auch noch unverständig
Wenn ich die Kunst entdecke inwendig/
So mache der - - euch gebändig.

'mache' is third person subjunctive 1 of the verb 'machen' meaning to 'make' or 'do'.
You should be looking up the verb infinitives in dictionaries, i.e. 'machen'. So 'mache' translates as "he/she/it makes" or more accurately conveying the subjunctive mood "he/she/it may make". The subjunctive 1 could also be translated as "let him/her/it make".

With 'gebändig' Jim was hovering around the right area with adding a 't'. 'gebändigt' is the past-participle of the verb 'bändigen'.

'bändigen' = to tame, to break (in); to restrain, to check, to manage, to repress; to subdue; to master.

I think 'gebändig' without the 't' is an adjective form similar to the word 'bändig' which is an adjective meaning 'manageable; obedient; obsequious; tame(able)', so 'gebändig' would be 'tamed, broken in; mastered'.

Then I spotted the word teach.

You can see how Jim is looking for ways to get the translation to fit what he wants it to say. 'Teach' is the weakest sense of the word and is not a good translation.

It seems Bessler may have been telling Wagner to make/manufacture the [expletive] that you (Wagner) teach. This makes the most sense relative to the rest of AP.

Bessler tells Wagner to get on and build the spring-powered wheel he talks about in his publication, but that is elsewhere and is not what this piece of text says. Again Jim is trying to force things to say what he thinks they should say instead of just reading what's actually there. Also Jim's use of swear words in his translations is beyond any rational understanding and destroys any shred of credibility they might have had!

Bessler needed a word to rhyme with inwendig, which he found by using gebändig. This causes a problem with understanding his meaning,

No it doesn't, it makes sense as written.

So assembling these meanings into English, we could say:
If I the invention invented within,

Wrong again. Here 'entdecke' is 1st person present indicative (or subjunctive 1) of the verb 'entdecken' which means:
to discover, to uncover; to detect, to find (out), to descry, to espy; to invent, to start;
to disclose, to divulge, to reveal, to open, to import, to rip open or up;

The items I've bolded are the correct sense of the word. So in a basic form the two lines translate as:

when/if I reveal inside the art,
so [may/let] the "- -" make you tamed/mastered.

or

if I reveal inside the art,
then the "- -" may tame/master you.

Mike (John's translator) has used the word 'enslave' and we can see how that's a good fit.

Another thing to point out is that in the line "Are you then also still ignorant", the word 'you' (ihr) is plural, and in the line "then the - - may tame/master you", the word 'you' (euch) is also plural. This means that Bessler is not directly addressing anyone (i.e. Wagner) although in the context of what's being said and what's gone before, Wagner falls into the group of those being addressed by the plural 'you'.

If I invented the invention within (my wheel),

This can be proved wrong grammatically as 'entdecke' is present and not past tense and so can't be translated as 'invented', it would have to be 'invent' and that would make a complete nonsense of the sentence. See how important grammar is and how easy it makes the understanding of a sentence? There's very little guesswork if you understand all the rules.

That brings us to the missing word. We've guessed it to be 'Teufel' (devil). 'Devil' makes sense in the context of the sentence and also from the paragraph above and from things Bessler has said earlier in the book, and I'll talk about them later. 'Teufel' fits the gap poetically, since having two syllables it has the right metering. Below I've split the lines into syllables:

Code: Select all

1   |2    |3  |4    |5  |6    |7 |8   |9
Wenn|ich  |die|Kunst|ent|deck'|in|wend|ig/
So  |mach'|der|Teu  |fel|euch |ge|bänd|ig.

When considering the text we've been discussing, we shouldn't forget that there is another paragraph on this page above it, and the "wheel" image below it. Here's the text above, which consists of three verses from Jacob 3 of the German Luther Bible:

Jacobi III. ℣. 14. 15. 16.
HAbt ihr aber bittern Neyd und Zanck
in euern Hertzen/ so rühmet euch nicht/
und lüget nicht wider die Wahrheit.
  Denn das ist nicht die Weißheit/ die von
Oben herab kommt/ sondern irrdisch/ mensch-
lich und teuflisch.
  Denn wo Neyd und Zanck ist/ da ist Un-
ordnung und eitel böse Ding.

and the English translation:

Jacob 3 ℣. 14, 15, 16.
Have you however bitter envy and quarrel
in your hearts, then boast not,
and lie not against the truth.
Because that is not wisdom, that comes
from on high, but earthly, human
and devilish.
Because where envy and quarrel is, there is
confusion and nothing but evil business.

So we have that followed by this:
Matthew 15 ℣. 16.
Are you then also still without understanding

It's worth reading the whole of Matthew 15 to get the complete context of the verse 16, but here are a few of the verses that follow it:

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

And he follows that with:
if I reveal inside the art,
then the devil may tame/master you.

Having quoted various passages from the Bible about the evils of envy, lies and blasphemy, which is aimed at his enemies (and particularly Wagner of course), it appears that Bessler concludes by saying that those that have behaved that way towards him will become enslaved by the devil when he reveals his wheel to be genuine.

This is backed up by other things Bessler says to Wagner throughout AP. In part 2, chapter VIII(8) of AP Bessler makes a curse wager with Wagner:

I wish to call together here all the curses, all the fires of hell, all the damnation, torment, woe, and pain which one could ever conceive of. Let them all assemble here and stand between me and Wagner. Now, if Wagner is not a liar, and my device really is as he says ( with clockwork, weights, springs, etc.) then all the curses shall descend on me. But should Wagner be a liar. then they will all descend on him. Just note, Wagner, it is not I who lay this curse upon you.
Will you not do penance, and be fearful for your soul? If not, the curse will surely overtake you. So let this arrangement stand between us, in the name of God. Let God Himself, the Holiest, be the judge between the two of
us. Farewell then, Wagner, wretched slave - I know that I am free, consoled, and vindicated.

- Translation from John Collins' AP book

I've bolded areas that tie in with the idea of becoming enslaved by the devil if Bessler reveals his work.

At the end of that chapter there is an extra paragraph that is untranslated in my copy of John's book. In it Bessler tells Wagner to read the following Bible references:

Römer 2
Sirach 28
Matthew 5

They all relate to how one should behave towards others, and Bessler ends by saying that Wagner should make room for repentance or he'll remain a rotten tree.

It's possible that the "wheel" image might also tie into this theme. See the following topic of mine about Brother Klaus' and his "wheel" image:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4326

Brother Klaus' "wheel" image is part of a larger artwork depicting various acts of Christian kindness. It's a possibility that Bessler includes his wheel image on the page as a reference to his Christian faith and as a reminder how Christians should behave towards their fellow man.

----------
Well, I've spent a long time on this post, so I hope it was worth it. I hope I've shown once again that Jim does not know what he's doing when it comes to translating the words of Bessler. I don't hold it against him that he lacks the knowledge for this task, no one expects him to be able to do it. Where I do hold him at fault is in keeping up a pretence that he knows what he's doing, and also that he is deliberately trying to fit translations to his own ideas and passing them off as the truth. He has shown no sign of attempting to learn the language and grammar, unless he does so his translations will never be accurate, although I fear even if he did he would still try to make them biased towards his own ideas.

This is the final time I'll be addressing Jim's translation attempts on this forum as I'll be moving to the new forum soon, so I hope everyone has got the message about Jim now. Jim's distortion of the facts and underhanded behaviour are in my opinion not fitting of a highly regarded member of this forum and I would urge everyone to remove any green dot they have awarded him and let him try and earn them back, but that's up to all of you as I'm out of here.

Stewart