Fictitiousness

[Allen_T]

jim_mich

That is also the same with a blacksmith how we swing a heavy hammer with ease. We pivot at the shoulder dropping elbow spinning the hammer in the hand not (spin the hand in case Lindgaard is reading) picking up volatility and making impact approximately (depending on the smith) 10 to 20 times more force than just dropping the hammer .

@AB Hammer,

>> We pivot at the shoulder dropping elbow spinning the hammer in the hand not (spin the hand in case Lindgaard is reading) <<

Between you and Jim_Mich, d@mn, could one of you get something right ?
The reason a hammer can be swung with ease is not in pivoting the shoulder as you claim.
A properly timed snap of the wrist can increase the kinetic energy in the hammer much more than the shoulder could allow for. This is one reason why using a balanced hammer is important.
What you describe is using brute force.
Also, when the hammer is being lifted, moving one's body underneath it lessens the amount of energy needed to lift it to striking position.

[rlortie]

Mr. Jim_Mich,

I find your thread "Fictitiousness" (all though my spell checker does not like the term), interesting and a topic I can relate/participate in . It is to bad it has to be contaminated with the likes of Jim L. and Alan B.

Alan should no better than to argue with an idiot pulling himself down to his level. His image of integrity and demeanor for my respect is not what it use to be.

My own research and current build relies heavy on your topic of flywheel storage of kinetic force supplied at a molecular level. Yes I am talking about "Fluid drive" using a Newtonian fluid weighing 10.5 to 11 pounds per gallon.

My concept differs from your PVC attempt by using the basic similarity of an automotive torque converter allowing the liquid to turn with the rotation as centrifugal force forces it into motion making for a symmetrical balanced mass contained by the centripetal force via the outer rim. An example of my research can be seen at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qAAn2R1dE The fixed stator/rotor blades are not shown in this rendition.

Unfortunately, I have not worked on my build in over a year now since my late spouse went into the "Hospice program. After completion of a 48" diameter dry run model as shown in my album: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... er=user_id I started fabrication of a 72" model which I will discuss at the appropriate time by starting a new thread.

Ralph

[AB Hammer]

jim_mich

That is also the same with a blacksmith how we swing a heavy hammer with ease. We pivot at the shoulder dropping elbow spinning the hammer in the hand not (spin the hand in case Lindgaard is reading) picking up volatility and making impact approximately (depending on the smith) 10 to 20 times more force than just dropping the hammer .

@AB Hammer,

>> We pivot at the shoulder dropping elbow spinning the hammer in the hand not (spin the hand in case Lindgaard is reading) <<

Between you and Jim_Mich, d@mn, could one of you get something right ?
The reason a hammer can be swung with ease is not in pivoting the shoulder as you claim.
A properly timed snap of the wrist can increase the kinetic energy in the hammer much more than the shoulder could allow for. This is one reason why using a balanced hammer is important.
What you describe is using brute force.
Also, when the hammer is being lifted, moving one's body underneath it lessens the amount of energy needed to lift it to striking position.

Jim L

I was talking to jim_mich. You obviously can't use a hammer to its full capability. beginner carpentry maybe. Brute force will tear your arm apart after a few years. fluent motion and understanding the real mechanics. Not all Blacksmiths use a hammer correctly either and they won't last without arm problems. I stated in 1986 and my arms are good. Do the math.

[cloud camper]

This is clod campers idea, that all forces cancel within an unpowered structure. A PM wheel must gain force and power by some means. When it gains internal force, then it is no longer an unpowered structure. It becomes a powered structure with asymmetrical forces acting inside.

I wish this little no-see-um clueless bug would move on. I need a bug-swatter.

So sad to see a formerly influential forum member now in full display of the glee of insanity where even firmly established scientific principles do not even warrant a second thought.

The poor unfortunate here has now completely identified himself as Bessler as all other realities fade into the mists of the past.

This imagined reality has so completely ingrained itself in this individual that there is no need of experts, physics or even of physical proof of principle confirmations.

Just endless loop thinking patterns where any intrusion into the carefully constructed thought structures are simply an annoying disturbance that must be stamped out by any means possible.

What we have here is just a pathetic attempt to return to the days of past glory when the entire forum would sit on the edge of their seats in rapt attention as new tales of runners would fill their computer screens.

So sadly we see no appeal to science only a frantic plea to admire the opinions of one who has now assumed the complete identity of Bessler.

[rlortie]

cloud camper,

What we have here is just a pathetic attempt to return to the days of past glory when the entire forum would sit on the edge of their seats in rapt attention as new tales of runners would fill their computer screens.

I have surpassed ten years on this forum! In that time Jim_Mich and I use to have what I considered constructive debates. Sometimes they would become heated touching on going personal, but we both did our best to tow the line!

Jim did carry a lot of weight on this forum but in time it came to light that he was not the builder he claimed to be! He did produce a number of simulations and animations that do not show up in his album.

He always had the influence to make me believe he was an avid builder, but the balloon has burst, his late attempt at a fluid powered PVC pipe design is the only verifiable build that I can credit him with.

Although my respect for the man has waned, I still enjoy a good debate, but now days it seems like all must languish in taking it personal leading to insults and lowering the integrity of the forum as a whole.

I now plead that this thread can stay on topic as it is one of the few that interest me.

Ralph

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi CC,

You wrote,

This imagined reality has so completely ingrained itself in this individual that there is no need of experts, physics or even of physical proof of principle confirmations.

If Bessler's Wheel was genuine where does that leave the experts? These experts that have the arrogance to proclaim that all experiments in this field have been done and as such it would be Impossible, and then go on to excluded a working wheel as folly even when one is put forward for them to test and the inventor offers his head if it is not the truth.

PS, I am in the Gravity Camp. It is said to be impossible by the same so called experts with the same arrogance. Not many of the so called experts have offered there heads.

Edit, + said to be impossible by.

[rlortie]

Trevor L W,

There is absolutely no reason why those of us in the gravity camp and those content on motion cannot oblige each other. Asymmetrical displacement created by motion means for OB or gravity.

If Jim_Mich wishes to confine himself to motion as the prime mover, then what good is it if said motion does not effect an unbalance in embodiment providing kinetic torque. Whether it be a boy on a swing or motion of a pendulum nothing is gained without gravity.

Jim_mich has voiced his negative opinion for my use of the terms; "embodiment" and "gradient", but I fail to see how you can achieve asymmetrical imbalance without them.

Ralph

[eccentrically1]

A flywheel, such as used by a big stamping press in a factory, gains rotational energy from a relatively small motor. Thus the spinning flywheel gains momentum and it gains kinetic energy as its speed increases. The flywheel possesses/holds/contains momentum. And it possesses/hold/contains energy, which is in the form of motion, i.e., kinetic energy. The flywheel has the potential to supply usable energy, and thus one could say it has potential energy and potential force.

Since all of these forces or energies are kinetic in nature, you can prefix each with the word 'kinetic'. Thus you have your PKE, or potential kinetic energy. Since all would be derived from the momentum of the flywheel, one could equate (using the proper equation) the momentum with the PKE of which you write.

The rotating flywheel of a punch press has the potential to produce a force when the trip-clutch is engaged. When the operator guy/gal presses both hand buttons (a safety feature) then the clutch engages and the potential energy derived from the momentum of the spinning flywheel, which was derived over time from the motor, gets transferred through the eccentric of the crank shaft and it presses with tremendous leveraged force, thus doing work of punching holes, of shearing metal, or forming automobile fenders or any other such operation that required lots of force during a rather short period of time. Obviously this slows the flywheel. Then the little motor accelerates the flywheel back up to its maximum running speed.

Thus force, momentum, and (kinetic/motional) energy, are all just different words used to look at situations from slightly different perspectives. Saying that one is not the same as another is what academicians say, as they nit-pic. :)}

I would argue that the momentum of the flywheel is derived from its RKE. Not the other way around. You stated it that way a few post back:

Then the stored rotational energy is turned into a sudden force for stamping and forming metal products.

And I said that's what I've been saying here for a long time. Energy is converted , and forces result.


If motion was the result of unbalanced forces, or even better, nonzero net forces, and, Newton's 3rd law says: "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.", how is it possible anything is ever set into motion? How can you have any situation where forces are nonzero?

My understanding is, if all forces cancel out, it has to be because the first body has transferred some of its energy to the second body. The form of energy conversion depends on the bodies.

Let's say the first body is me, and I'm pushing any arbitrary inert mass. Most of my push is going to have to overcome the inertia of the mass, and some to over come the different frictional and normal forces, which will be a thermal energy signature of the push after I finish pushing. When I push, the force I experience is the force from the mass (inertia) equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to my force, including said friction.

Then why did it move? My understanding is the potential energy in my body, in the form of chemical potential energy, is converted into kinetic energy.
My body responds to this conversion, with motion. The chemical conversions taking placing in my muscles make me move. My motion is then transferred to the mass through EM force repulsion.

The point is, any motion is going to show an energy conversion. The real "horse" in motion is energy conversion. If I set another mass next to the mass I pushed, and wait for motion to occur between them, nothing happens, there is no motion, because there is no energy conversion taking place.

[jim_mich]

He always had the influence to make me believe he was an avid builder, but the balloon has burst, his late attempt at a fluid powered PVC pipe design is the only verifiable build that I can credit him with.

My only build????

Note to those viewers that are here as guests, you will not be able go to the more private Community Buzz part of the forum by clicking on some of the pictures like forum members can. You can access such by becoming a forum member.

Of course this below is the PVC wheel. (I built it while suffering the pain of a stress fracture in my left arm)


Speaking of building... in between building wheels, I also did a lot of other things, including a complete remodel of both bathrooms in this, my now ex-wife's house.

This included replacing all of the water supply, waste plumbing, water heater, water conditioner, and added a dish washer. Also stripped all the old lead paint from the outside of the house.

I also built my current home many years ago, where I did everything except the excavation, foundation walls, and the chimney brickwork. Thus I'm a contractor, a carpenter, a plumber, an electrician, a drywall installer, a painter, a roofer, a cabinet maker, etc. etc. And while doing that I was also was a dairyman, a gardener, a bee keeper, a poultry-man, an orchard-man. I don't post this to puff myself up. I post it because some few individuals keep trying to portray me as ignorant, which is a big fat lie.

I've worked as a mechanical draftsman, an electronic circuit draftsman, a mechanical designer, a medical instrument designer, a chief draftsman, a shipping package designer, a computer case designer, a computer keyboard designer, an architect for my own home, a machine tool designer, and I've probably forgotten more than many youngsters have yet to experience.

Currently I'm sidelined with a stress-fracture in my right arm. I can barely build with a broken left arm, like I did with my PVC wheel, but a broken right arm just makes building impossible, because I'm right handed.

Ralph, you should realize that it was clod camper (the troll) who started the lie that I'm not a builder. And after repeating that lie so many times, even you, Ralph, began to believe it. Another point I should make is that I didn't at first have any digital camera. I have no picture records my early builds.

So Ralph, you (and also clod camper) should be ashamed of accusing me of not being a builder. I've been building inventions since about kindergarten, more than 60 years now. So shame on you guys for saying that I don't build.

Oh, by the way, here is some other building I did before I came to the Bessler Wheel forum...

Those digital pictures were originally extracted from a video tape recorder. As I said, back when I was first here on the forum, I didn't have a digital camera.

Clod camper is just a bully that gets a perverted kick out of harassing me. He should hang his head in shame.

Ralph, if you want a thread to stay on-topic, then don't make false claims that I don't build, specially when you should know better.

End of rant. Let's get back to Bessler related discussions.

[jim_mich]

Cloud camper, your above post #132473 was abusive toward me, was harassing toward me, you are stalking me, was defamatory toward me, was offensive, and it was overall objectionable in its content and tone.

Cloud camper, I quote from the terms of use of this forum, which terms you agreed to when you signed up...

You explicitly agree, in using this web site or any service provided, that you shall not:
1. Provide any Content or perform any conduct that may be -snip- abusive, harassing, stalking, tortious, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, offensive, objectionable, pornographic, designed to or does interfere or interrupt this web site -snip-

Cloud camper, your conduct is contrary to these terms of use. In the future I intend to report such conduct by you each and every time you break these agreed to terms of use.

[cloud camper]

Tough luck JM.

If you keep trying to ban everyone else's opinion except your own, your in for a very tough row to hoe.

And you do not deserve an iota of respect due to your repeated and flagrant
lying to the forum.

[ovyyus]

CC, we clearly need to get you up to 2 greenies before JM convinces Scott to ban all 1 greenie members who disagree with him. You have my vote.

Perhaps you could try tagging your posts with an anti-deodorant catch-all phrase like the one below, apparently JM doesn't want it anymore.

My words are my opinion. If you disagree - that's your problem, not mine.

[cloud camper]

JM continues to beg for respect.

But liars are not given respect. Liars are given the boot!

[jim_mich]

Cloud camper, quoting from the terms of use of this forum, which terms you agreed to when you signed up...

You explicitly agree, in using this web site or any service provided, that you shall not:
1. Provide any Content or perform any conduct that may be -snip- abusive, harassing, stalking, tortious, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, offensive, objectionable, pornographic, designed to or does interfere or interrupt this web site -snip-

Cloud camper, your conduct, which is contrary to these terms of use, has been reported.

Tough luck JM.

If you keep trying to ban everyone else's opinion except your own, your in for a very tough row to hoe.

And you do not deserve an iota of respect due to your repeated and flagrant
lying to the forum.

This post is untrue as I've not repeated any lie. I'm mortal like all men and as such I have on a couple of occasions made a false statements. That does not constitute "repeated and flagrant lying".

This post is harassment toward me.

This post is cloud camper stalking me.

This post is tortious, as your wrongful continual harassment interferes with my posting to this forum.

This post is defamatory.

This post is libelous as it is a malicious statement meant only to harm my reputation.

This post is offensive to me since it is a continuation of your posting of abusive, harassing, stalking, tortious, defamatory, libelous posts directed personally toward me.

I've repeatedly asked cloud camper to stop such behavior, but he insist on continuing to harass me.

You have been reported.

[jim_mich]

Cloud camper, quoting from the terms of use of this forum, which terms you agreed to when you signed up...

You explicitly agree, in using this web site or any service provided, that you shall not:
1. Provide any Content or perform any conduct that may be -snip- abusive, harassing, stalking, tortious, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, offensive, objectionable, pornographic, designed to or does interfere or interrupt this web site -snip-

Cloud camper, your conduct, which is contrary to these terms of use, has been reported.

JM continues to beg for respect.

But liars are not given respect. Liars are given the boot!

This post is untrue as I've not repeated any lie. I'm mortal like all men and as such I have on a couple of occasions made a false statements. I am not a liar. Continually posting such a statement is harassment.

This post is harassment toward me.
This post is cloud camper stalking me.
This post is tortious, as cloud camper's wrongful continual harassment interferes with my posting to this forum.
This post is defamatory.
This post is libelous as it is a malicious statement meant only to harm my reputation.
This post is offensive to me since it is a continuation of cloud camper's posting of abusive, harassing, stalking, tortious, defamatory, libelous posts directed personally toward me.

I've repeatedly asked cloud camper to stop such behavior, but he insist on continuing to harass me.

Cloud camper has been reported.