How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by cloud camper »

Jim_Mich wrote:Nobody, you and others hang on to the false concept that Bessler's wheel had compartments and holes so as to support your own wheel ideas. You can open your eyes and read Bessler's original words, and then understand the full context of what Bessler wrote.

Or you can be like others, such as that "filthy Jew" cloud camper, who keeps bashing me, who sticks his fingers in his ears and exclaims, "No, no, no. You are wrong." without showing a shred of evidence to support his claim that my understanding of Bessler's writings are wrong.

I've offered to discuss Bessler's writings with a number of people, but all run and hide, claiming that since I've already decided what Bessler wrote, they don't want a discussion. It seems that many are fearful that their cherished beliefs might be put at risk. And they don't want to take such a risk.
Actually, JM is right.

I've been working so hard on my wheel, I missed my shower last night!
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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by rocky »

The Professor was nice to send me a detailed reply:

Robert,

Thank you for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive reply about Count Karl.

To your question: I am retired for 15 years now, and no longer have much interest in pseudoscience, except that I do keep up my "Museum of Unworkable Devices" which began as a source of physics puzzles for students. One can learn a lot of physics by seriously examining the physics of the classic perpetual motion devices. People send me designs to analyze. Most are reinventions of the square wheel, for their inventors are innocent of the long history of such inventions. A very few are interesting enough to make good puzzles. Some are so fiendishly complex that even the inventor doesn't claim to understand them, and useless as puzzles for students.

Most of my old notes were trashed when I retired. Much of my library has been donated to other libraries or to used-book sales.

As for perpetual motion, you will find most of my sources listed at the end of this page

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/people/people.htm .

One other source, not listed, was the book by John Collins, which it appears I gave away a few years back.

As I recall, most of the available sources in English are derivative of Dircks' books, which I still have. The book by Percy Verance is just an abridged rearrangement of material from Dircks. These are also available as free PDF books online. One frustrating thing about these secondary sources is that the seldom give complete bibliographies and specific references, nor any clue to who did the translations. I admit carelessness on this myself. On my page (link above) I have a quote from Jacob Leupold that probably does not appear anywhere else, since Hand-Peter Gramatke and I translated it from the original Old German one evening when we were discussing how often some of these folks are misrepresented in secondary sources.

You are eloquent in praise of Count Karl, and his integrity and honesty. I do not doubt this.

However, I am reminded of similar cases of intelligent, honorable and respected persons being victims of their own gullibility and will to believe. Years ago, in connection with my interest in magic (performance magic) I researched the history of spiritualism and its relation to certain scientists. A number of well known scientists were taken in by spiritualism and fraudulent spirit mediums. Naturalist Alfred Wallace, physicist William Crookes, astrophysicist Zollner, engineer Crawford, and a few others (I'm working from memory here). Zollner is an interesting case. He was a spectroscopist and invented an improved photometer for that work. He was fascinated by the new developments in mathematics of four and more dimensions, and thought that perhaps the spirit world was in a higher dimension. The spiritualist medium Henry Slade caught his attention, and Zollner persuaded Slade to spend some time on experiments done in Zollner's home. Zollner wrote a book "Transcendental Physics" about this, a classic of self-delusion and gullibility. Anyone only casually knowledgeable about spiritualist trickery can read this book and see how Zollner was being fooled. I still have a copy of this book, I think.

And then there's the sad case of Arthur Conan Doyle, a respected writer, who believed in the reality of fairies (little folk with wings) and was a believer in spiritualism. An honest, but gullible person.

So I cannot be impressed by the fact that Count Karl was an honest and intelligent man. My experience has been that even great minds often have a soft spot. Or as one wag has said, a "nest of wooly caterpillars".

Though much has been written about Bessler, I am frustrated at questions that are not anwered:

Why, during the demonstration of his wheel running in a sealed room for a long time do we not hear of anyone wondering whether there was audible noise of the running wheel the whole time? If not, why not? The room was sealed, but was it sealed so well that no sound could be heard. Accounts of earlier demonstrations describe the wheel as quite noisy. And why did Bessler not provide a small window so that anyone could observe the wheel rotating the entire time? That would have been strong evidence that no deception was involved. But by keeping out of sight we suspect deception.

Why didn't anyone weigh the wheel and report its weight? John Collins gave me his estimate, but apparently there's no contemporary supporting evidence.

Exactly how long did the wheel turn during demonstrations? The whole time? Or was it stopped and started again? Apparently so.

When the wheel was taken from its supports and put on a different set of supports, how many men were required to lift and carry it? Or was a mechanical winch used? If assistants were used to move the wheel, were they in Bessler's employ, or were they independent workers? My suspicion here should be obvious. In moving the wheel it could be rotated to "reset" its interior mechanism for another round of demonstrations. No one would notice. Of course we cannot know for sure, from the lack of detailed information about the procedure during the demos.

And I could make a complete list, but it would be tedious.

I doubt we will ever know the exact methods Bessler used to make the demonstrations seem miraculous. If any new information has turned up in the last 20 years, please point me to it. Otherwise I will consider this cold case to be laid to rest.

In the past, when I have investigated such things as this, I discover misinterpretations and misrepresentations in abundance. On my website I have documents about several. One is the Naples Geodetic Survey of Ulysses G. Morrow around the turn of the century which claimed to show that the earth was concave, a hollow shell with us and the entire universe on the inside. To the uninformed it seemed to have been a carefully conducted and reasonable experiment using mahogany and steel rectilineator sections to construct a nearly 4 mile land line to measure the concavity of water near Naples, Florida. But, having examined a surviving section of the rectilineator at the Koreshan Historic Site, I concluded that it was nowhere near rigid, and sagged under its own weight in the right sense to produce the erroneous results. No one else had previously bothered to question this. I have a web page on this.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hollow/morrow.htm .

Apparently no fraud or deception, just an honest blunder. But here, even though the original data notebook of Morrow seems to be lost, we do have an intact section of the rectilineator as evidence. In the Bessler case we have nothing of the sort.

And then there's the Tamarack Mines plumb line experiment which some claim also supports the idea of an inside-out hollow earth. This is much misrepresented in the secondary sources (probably deliberately, to deceive). I have a web page on that, too:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hollow/tamarack.htm .

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- Rocky (Robert)
"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by rocky »

Ralph wrote:

"I believe you will find that the majority of the following quote a hypothetical/fictionalized rendering by Dr. Ramish Menaria:"

Quote:
“When the oiled cloth was stripped away, said Count Karl, he found himself gazing upon a very simple arrangement of weights and levers. Orffyreus explained that he had conceived a system whereby the weights on one side of the wheel were farther from the axle than the weights on the other side of the wheel, creating an imbalance which caused the wheel to move. The secret, if there was a secret, lay in the ingenious manner in which the weights on the ascending side of the wheel were prevented from following their normal path next to the rim. Count Karl said that these weights were blocked by small pegs which swung back out of the way as the weight passed the zenith. The Count prudently hastened back to his quarters and wrote an account of what he had seen.�

Dr. Ramish Menaria was born in 1960. Frank Edwards book “Stranger Than Science� Chapter “Bessler’s Wonderful Wheel�, was published in 1959.

Menaria is quoting out of Edwards book. It is not a hypothetical/fictionalized rendering by Menaria. We do not know Edwards source.
- Rocky (Robert)
"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by rlortie »

Jim_Mich wrote:
Or you can be like others, such as that "filthy Jew" cloud camper, who keeps bashing me, who sticks his fingers in his ears and exclaims, "No, no, no. You are wrong." without showing a shred of evidence to support his claim that my understanding of Bessler's writings are wrong.
What has cloud camper said or did on this thread to ruffle your feathers? You ask that he leaves you alone, but it appears you miss the attention and seek to continue your childish games.

So now you display being the bigot that James mentioned to accompany your juvenile inferiority complex. If left alone you stir the pot seeking attention so you can whine some more!

I have not seen a shred of evidence that supports your claims with any proof better than those with other claims.

There are those of us that could care less about what Bessler said or try to duplicate his methods, so why not post your off-topic criticism on threads where it is relevant!

My greatest quandary is; how do you manage to retain the status of "highly regarded" when you cannot leave well enough alone.

Over the years I was left with the belief that you owned metal working equipment including but not limited to an engine lathe, and the empirical skills to use them. To date I have seen no work to confirm this impression.

If you have invented a better mouse trap, build it: the world will beat a path to your door.

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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by primemignonite »

Charming!

For this thrown-bone, I'd not bow too low, Rocky.

UNDERSTAND, Prof., that if Bessler had tried such trickery and gotten caught, he likely would have been flayed and buried on the spot.

Also as for the why was no sound heard or mentioned bit, those buildings were built of STONE, you know, as in "castles"? Those were really rough days back then, old professing buddy.

"So I cannot be impressed by the fact that Count Karl was an honest and intelligent man. My experience has been that even great minds often have a soft spot. Or as one wag has said, a "nest of wooly caterpillars".

Can you not? Really?

What a hopeless and out-of-touch, condescending snob!

Also, 'we' do notice that he does not care to reference his particularly nasty "Psychology" bashing page, among his links as offered.

James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
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Post by jim_mich »

Ralph, you're getting senile. Go back to the previous page and click on those two words you find offensive and for which you now make false accusations about me.

Or I'll make it easy. Click right here.

Stop trying to disrupt Rocky's thread. Take your complaints about me elsewhere.

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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by Oystein »

lol, so the Professor is putting himself above Leibniz? That is all I would reply to him! I would trust Leibniz on site, rather than Donald in chair.
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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by ovyyus »

Leibniz knew the wheel was not somehow driven by an external application of force. Leibniz only knew what the wheel was not, but not what it was.
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Re: re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by Furcurequs »

cloud camper wrote:
Jim_Mich wrote:Nobody, you and others hang on to the false concept that Bessler's wheel had compartments and holes so as to support your own wheel ideas. You can open your eyes and read Bessler's original words, and then understand the full context of what Bessler wrote.

Or you can be like others, such as that "filthy Jew" cloud camper, who keeps bashing me, who sticks his fingers in his ears and exclaims, "No, no, no. You are wrong." without showing a shred of evidence to support his claim that my understanding of Bessler's writings are wrong.

I've offered to discuss Bessler's writings with a number of people, but all run and hide, claiming that since I've already decided what Bessler wrote, they don't want a discussion. It seems that many are fearful that their cherished beliefs might be put at risk. And they don't want to take such a risk.
Actually, JM is right.

I've been working so hard on my wheel, I missed my shower last night!
I'm a filthy non-Jew, unless you count that "grafted on" stuff, and then maybe I'm a filthy gentile with dirty Jew tree roots. ...lol

Being stuck inside my cabin with chronic pain so much of the time, though, I can lose track of my showers.

"Well, I did take a shower before going to get my groceries last night. ...Wait, what's today? Oh, that wouldn't have been last night, then. Wow, that might not have even been the night before last! Thank God no one comes to visit me!" ...lol

Before we are tempted to catch up with our showers, however, we might want to make sure the shower facilities are working properly. Some of those German made showers have been known to be a bit untrustworthy. They don't seem to know how to properly use plumbing fixtures.
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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by rlortie »

Sorry all!

I just have a problem with this ethnic thing. I was circumcised shortly after birth and could not walk for darn near a full year!
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Post by MrVibrating »

Two quick points from me here:

@Jim - (from memory) the context of Bessler's supposed comment regarding a compartmentalised axle follows from the lines preceding "i assure you my wheel is not like that"...

"Like" what, exactly?

He's responding to a suggestion that his axle is in two halves, connected only by a pin, and retorting that no, his axle is different. The word that's been translated to "compartments" has alternative translations, one of which IIRC is "subjects" - raising the possibility that he's referring to the 'subjects in question', specifically, axles divided by connecting pins. Hence an alternative interpretation, following strictly in the context of the passage, would be that he's claiming his axle is divided not into two sections connected by a pin, but rather many such sections and connecting pins.

What then immediately comes to mind is that the resulting mental image bears no small similarity to the left-most drawing labelled 'A' on the Toys Page - which could conceivably represent such a 'compound' axle construction.

What i like about this possibility - at least, the possibility that 'A' on the Toys page might be multiple parallel axles - is that it would allow mechanisms attached to different sections to rotate at different or perhaps varying speeds relative to one another and the wheel proper, thus opening up the prospect of temporal interplays, by definition an integral aspect of any Noether exception.

But i have no German language skills whatsoever, so this is of course purely speculative. What seems certain however is that, in the passage in question, Bessler is specifically addressing the question of a split axle, and that this is the context for whatever immediately follows, ie. the "many compartments" statement.


@Cloud Camper - i know that quote Jim linked to was from yonks ago, and don't mean to stir any old flames, but as a fellow crusty old Kike i feel compelled to point out, whenever i see the "eye for an eye" quote misused as a lex talionis justification for retribution or retaliation, that its original context actually concerned the establishing of standards of law in the fledgling Israeli kingdom - the concept that there should be set tarrifs for offences, and that the punishment should fit (and not exceed) the crime. Whereas previously, if i stole your goat you might burn my house down, or if i burned yours down you might slay my family, the instituting of a preist class (the "Cohens" claiming descent from Aaron) to act as a judiciary discharging mandated sentences was a significant, if not laudable, mark of progress, from anarchy to meaningful civilisation. Albeit, one likely borrowed from the Babylonians.. Point is, its intent was to curtail escalation, not validate or encourage it!

Apologies for the Wednesday night sermon, but seeing how this one verse has been (and continues to be) abused so thoroughly over the ages (for instance Sharia co-opts and still enforces it in a barbarously literalistic manner).. the Pentateuch enjoins much less violence than most people believe when read in context, and this particular misgiving especially, deserves to be tackled wherever encountered IMHO..
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Re: re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by Furcurequs »

rlortie wrote:Sorry all!

I just have a problem with this ethnic thing. I was circumcised shortly after birth and could not walk for darn near a full year!
Tell me about it! Same thing happened to me. Now, if only I could just stop crying.
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re: How Many People Saw The Inside Of Bessler's Wheel?

Post by rlortie »

I've offered to discuss Bessler's writings with a number of people, but all run and hide, claiming that since I've already decided what Bessler wrote, they don't want a discussion. It seems that many are fearful that their cherished beliefs might be put at risk. And they don't want to take such a risk.
I run and hide because I nor I believe you have any objective proof to back up either side of a discussion, If you cannot put proof on the table and you can rest assured that I cannot, what is to be gained by wasting our time discussing.

Edited to add: What is there to risk?

I use to spend so much time in the shop that I too forgot to shower frequently. That is when I invented my deodorant called "Vanish" I would apply it and disappear, everyone wondered where the smell was coming from. Not unlike your substantiations, the container I had made it in disappeared and I had nothing for patent proof!

Once again I apologize for my off-topic dry sense of humor, this will be my last!
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Post by AB Hammer »

Ralph and Furcurequs

I needed a laugh. I have been off my legs due to both knees giving out at the same time. So I was working on paperwork for my VA claims and appeals. I just finished with my facts gathering on ______oids and that was painful.

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Post by jim_mich »

MrVibrating wrote:The word that's been translated to "compartments" has alternative translations, one of which IIRC is "subjects"
But, it have rather many compartments.
Sondern, sie hat vielmehr viel’ Fächer;

The word in question would be "Fächer"

The German word "Fach" means compartment/subject/field/pocket/shelf/department/pigeonhole. In this case "compartment" would be the best English word. In Wagner's critique dated 1716, the English translation has Wagner using the word compartment five times in describing how he thought Bessler's wheel worked. I don't have access the Wagner's original German text, but I would assume it to be "Fach" or "Fächer" and thus both men were communicating concerning the same compartments or pockets. This assumption is based upon the fact that Bessler was replying to Wagner's critique.

A few lines before the compartment discussion, Bessler writes to Wagner "Du schreibest:" which means, "You write/scribe:" This is where Bessler discusses the split shaft and concludes with, "so long but must you laugh, until that you so a work will make."

Next Bessler changes the subject to "Du sprichst:" which means "You speak:" He then discusses the witness seeing thru the cracks, and about Wagner's assumptions as to how the wheel works, which assumption was derived by Wagner from the crack peeper's comments.

I can post my crude translations of the lines involved, but I doubt anyone's really interested.

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