Mayday! Mayday!!!

[Mark]

No, that's not what I meant by "re-think". I was referring to going through the design evolution, step by step, and validating each one as correct [and helpful towards your goal] before moving on to the next step. To say it another way; make sure that each "picture" is a solid foundation to build the next one on.

I think you need the belts to support the levers in the desired position against the pull of the weight cords. The flywheel effect of the wheel disc should offset most of the counter-torque from them.

I would suggest that you reconsider the need for the counter-weights that you added to the pulleys. IINM, they were an after-thought? I saw your original posts, before you edited them in, and was somewhat surprised and confused by your intention for them.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. As my signature line says:
envision, describe, simplify, construct, refine -- repeat any, as necessary
Do those 5 things in order. If you need to repeat one, then follow up with the successive ones.
Keep the concept of the design intact. Make what doesn't work, work [if possible]. Give success a chance to come out of hiding.

N.B. - I am certainly not trying to tell you how to proceed. It's your design. I'm just encouraging you to stay on track until the engine reaches it's destination, or runs out of steam.

[Tarsier79]

Weights raised vs lowered: continuing from before, the movement of the weight at 4:30 is much less vertically than the shift of the lifted weight at 7. This could be balanced by the sec9nd falling weight, at least through part of the rotation.

So do you have a definite runner? Even once you solve the specifics of the disk gearing, not enough potential for me to attempt a build, and definitely not so much you dont have to.

[raj]

What I am trying to acchieve with my current sdesign is to make ALL WEIGHTS, irrespective of their position in tne wheel, help the wheel to turn.

That is no wheel will provide counter torque, even when it is on the ascending side of the wheel, being pulled up as per the design.

I do not know if this is achievable. But I continue trying.

Thanks to both of you, Mark and Tarsier79.

Raj

[Silvertiger]

Silvertiger I appreciate your views.

Pythagoras theorem is proven theoritically by drawings.

No building is required.

Raj

It's actually physics. Physics is not a view or opinion...it just is - and it saves much needed time and resources if you know it beforehand. Break your drawings down into free-body diagrams and work out your torque triangles mathematically, and you will see that they balance out..all of them. All Pythagoras needed was drawings...you don't need to build a triangle to calculate lengths and angles; so that example doesn't really fit lol. ;)

[daanopperman]

Hi Raj ,

" That is no wheel will provide counter torque, even when it is on the ascending side of the wheel, being pulled up as per the design "

Raj , I made some lines on your drawing , to show the counter torque , the rotation of the crossed over drive .

The red lines is the counter torque lines , they will try to stop the wheel from turning , any mass hanging from the arms going up from the small pulley's will need to be lifted , as the mass is on one side of the pulley , it will create a load on the pulley . The blue arrow is the direction the wheel will want to go , and the brown is the direction the pulley want to go , IOW , the counter torque .

The pink lines is the distance the weights fall and the distance the weight must be raised , thay are the same so there is no energy created .

[AB Hammer]

Hi Raj

You have been showing some good builds and addressing new approaches.

I just got home from 2 operations and am not feeling to clear or good but now only 3 more to go but not allowed to pick up more than 10 lbs for the next 6 weeks and not allowed my left hand until cleared but I am to stretch my fingers and trips for therapy.

But above all else. Keep up the good work.




P S typing with 1 hand s#^ks

[ME]

Hope you heal well, AB Hammer!

What I am trying to acchieve with my current sdesign is to make ALL WEIGHTS, irrespective of their position in tne wheel, help the wheel to turn

Raj,
I agree almost with your intention; I'll settle for Weight-pairs.

I guess those black blobs on your pulleys are very heavy weights for the reason those pulleys are (quote:) "rotating but ALWAYS keeping their upright vertical position"?
If that's what's intended then please consider its (side-)effect.

As a simple example:
When putting a large weight on a balance near the pivot-point then:
when always exactly below the pivot-point then you probably won't need it, or
when even a small fraction away from the pivot-point, it starts to count.

I do not know if this is achievable. But I continue trying

There's no fun if one wouldn't try, so please do continue.

[raj]

I thank you ALL, Daano, Alan, Marchello and Others, for your interest and help with my wheel design.

It is not always easy to convey one's thoughts to others.

The crucial debate here is ' Torque ' effect on wheel to make it turn.

The drawing below shows one weight as it appears in my complete designs above.
It is so easy to work out the torque with this weight on the wheel by this drawing.

The arrows show the direction towards the descending side of the wheel.

1. The weight is swinging downwards due to gravity.
2. The lever on the pulley is being pulled in the same direction as the wheel is turning.
3. The counter TORQUE by the weight is not directly acting on the wheel. Instead the counter torque by this weight is turning the pulley
4. The pulley and small weight on the pulley will now move very slightly in the same direction as the wheel.

What I am now trying to do, is to find a way to use this counter turning of the pulley to help turn the wheel.

The broken line (in red ink) connecting the weight on the pulley to the rim of the wheel WOULD DO it , if only this was possible to incorporate in the design.

I have not been able to bring this idea in my design YET.

Raj

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Raj,

You have to look at that torque force on the levers fulcrum, the lever is trying not only to drive the wheel, but also force the wheel down in the opposite direction through the levers fulcrum. This is why it is best to look at each part, then look at the whole picture.

All the best, and keep up the good work, if you do not try you cannot succeed.

TLW

[raj]

Dear Trevor L . W,

You are absolulely right.

This is the MAIN obstacle in this design.

I have just thought of a possible solution.

This drawing shows a ratchet wheel (in green ink) on main wheel hub geared by belt (in blue ink) to one pulley on the main wheel's rim.

In this drawing the ratchet wheel will apply force to the main wheel only when rotating clockwise,

When the main wheel turn clockwise the ratchet wheel CAN turn counter-clockwise if any force is applied without stopping the main wheel rotation.

When the main wheel turns clockwise, the small weight on the pulley moving upwards on the main wheel's rim, will make pulley and also the ratchet wheel turn counter-clockwise , as long as the flexible string, holding the weight on the rigid arm, remains slack.

As soon as the flexible string is fully stretched, the main weightl will pull lever on the pulley downwards clockwise against counter weight on the pulley.

Now analysing the torque effect at this point:

1. The weight on the pulley is a very small weight, just enough to keep the oulley, llever upright, The torque effect from this weight should be minimal.

2. Which way the pulley will turn, after the flexible string is fully stretched will depend on the mass of the main weight, which by design, could many times more than the mass of the small weight on the pulley.

3. It is certain that the force from the main swinging weight mass will be greater than the counter-force from the small weight on the pulley, and therefore pulley will then rotate clockwise, turning ratchet wheel at the same time because of gearing belt and now for a while will help main wheel with additional momemtum.

If this ratchet wheel inclusion in the design works, there will be stiil problems of how to gear all 8 pulleys with ratchet wheel/S.

Raj

[daanopperman]

Hi Raj ,

I place another drawing to show counter torque in the wheel design .
If the small pulley is loaded with the mass swinging down , the small counter weight on the pulley will swing to the left of the vertical and bring mass to the LH side of the pulley pivot .
By trying to move mass away from the center of gravity on the RH side , the same amount of mass will move away to the LH side of the wheel , for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction .
To put a ratchet on the main wheel axel while you have reverse torque on the ratchet will bring no joy to the party . Reverse torque will only happen on the ascending side of the wheel and that is where you need the ratchet to work .

[raj]

Hello Daano,

Thanks.

I had thought of putting the ratchet on the pulleys, but I opted to put it on the axle for easy presentation on the idea of using ratchet.

Raj

[AB Hammer]

Weight reaction locations.

As long as weights swing at a single pivot/axle. The weight effect/react at that single point.

When a weight is divided to two separate points of mounts that are not on the same axle/pivot the weight reacts at the weights location, when it comes to wheel work.

[AB Hammer]

doubled post edit

[daanopperman]

Hi Raj ,

Small pulley's ( up to 2 in ) can easy be made with 2 Fender washers ( big outside dia with small inside dia ) when pressed between 2 different size 1/2 in drive sockets/ pipes in a normal table vice , one on each side . 2 are made and soft soldered back to back over a gas hotplate ( even a electric hotplate ) . First tin both washers near the center all round , place them in position over the stove and let the solder fuse together , place a teespoon full water on the joint and remover asap from the heat .

Pop rivets make exellent low friction , light load , high speed bearings when working in wood . Hold the rivet by the head with a pliers , with the steel pin pointing down , tap the pin out of the rivet head . Once the pin start to move it comes out very easy . A rivet is of the size to fit a drill bit easy . 4.8 mm rivet (uses a 5 mm drill bit to fasten ) , use a 4.5 mm drill bit in the wood , the rivet will press into the drilled hole snugly with a little bit of persuation . One on each side of the wood to line up , a piece of piano wire will carry a lot of load if the wire is hold close to the rivet head .