IQ needed for solving Besslers challenge?

[daanopperman]

Yes , even the SMART now spread their genes by the sick and the poor .

[daanopperman]

Because of inbreading the smart became the sick and the poor .

[Fletcher]

I generally don't comment on either religion or politics on any discussion boards. This was sent to me by an American friend some time ago as we privately discussed democracy's potential 'staying power' in first world countries and the dumbing down of the population. Recent comments on this thread prompted me to find it again and post it. I do not promote any view expressed below above another (for a start, I'm not American).

Points to ponder.

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.

A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

...........................................


"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

............................


The Obituary follows:

Here lies the USA Born 1776, Died 2016

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19; Romney: 29

Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000; Romney: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million; Romney: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2; Romney: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Romney won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote - then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

Einstein said, "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything"

[daanopperman]

( for a start, I'm not American).

Neither is Obama .

We live in the most exiting time of mankind , but it is a disturbing time .
Able man has to fend for the unable , yet the unable dictates .

Me , I don't think a hi IQ would bring you a Wheel , but a Wheel will bring you a hi IQ . The most brilliant men in history with IQ's off the scale , non of them had any wheels .

In the land of the blind , the one eye is king , but king of what .

Thanks for the bad vibes Fletcher , truly disturbing .

Daan

[Fletcher]

I think my point is that 'human nature' (including dollops of self interest) pervades everything and every collective decision ever made, IMO. It also underpins all 'soft' sciences etc, so if you can understand what motivates individuals (just look at marketing, fear based) then you can begin to predict social outcomes and trends. Then you can make your own decisions and plans.

Nuff said by me on that subject.

...................

As for IQ to solve Bessler's wheel. Until I see a cogent explanation of how the math might work or a working wheel by someone, I don't know what IQ might be needed. I suspect that a mid to high range of IQ might be beneficial (then again, maybe not).

The really intelligent ones don't pursue a gravity wheel because the law of diminishing returns and their education tells them there will be no payback, so it's not worthwhile dedicating any resources to it.

[AB Hammer]

You hit this one on the nose, Fletcher. Good points





edited to correct grammar of a quick post.

[Oystein]

Fletcher: You could be really intelligent without any education in physics...not knowing the laws you mention. If he then get to know the facts of Besslers wheel before reading up on any law, I think you have a better combination.

Because you in a way say that the one that will possibly succeed is so "stupid" that he can`t attend physics education :))

I think my example person will beat yours lol

So I basically say that the one that will succeed does not have a formal education in physics but still has the intelligence to easily complete a physics education if he wished to.

But his mind has to be wired a bit different... he must feel that he is not like the others, but still be able to be like the others.

My grandfather used to say: "You know, the minority is the ones that most often is right" (in complex questions)

I think such a person should easily grasp that quote without questioning or pointing out the obvious anomaly.

[eccentrically1]

Fletcher,
This was one of those chain letters. Mostly false. I don't know where to begin so I'll just leave the fact checking here.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp

I think most technological advancements have been accomplished by men and women with above average IQs. Occasionally there is a savant with skill or ability in one field.

[eccentrically1]

For starters, in Athens, each citizen voted directly on legislation and executive bills. USA has an indirect democracy. Women weren't allowed to vote. Their democracy was interrupted twice. It was the world's first attempt at a democracy. There were more non voting slaves than voting men.
It's not a good comparison, if you ask this American!

[Fletcher]

Yes, thanks ECC1. That chain letter was part of the discussion at the time with my friend. Hence my comment that any views expressed there weren't necessarily my own, or his. Make up your own mind on the 'facts'.

Our conversation as I remember was originally around that democracy was an unproven system and why it might ultimately fail the western world. And if so what stages might we expect to see as it matured (such as largesse, debt escalation replacing savings and productivity (individuals and countries), rampant importing and consumerism driven by fear, and moral decay etc etc). And what drivers might tip it one way or another etc. The letter made some valid points, IMO.

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Absolutely about savants and higher IQ's producing technological advancements. They tend to be more focused for longer.

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Oystein .. of course an intelligent person need not be educated in physics to solve this paradox. As you say he or she would probably have the ability to learn if they wanted to.

But above all they would need a discerning mind. They would follow the scientific principle I suspect whether educated in physics and math or not.

Observe, measure, quantify, predict.

If they were smart enough (or wired different enough as you say) they would understand the foundations of the education and be able to see the individual building blocks to theories and laws and how they cross-pollinate. But also to see a greater depth and understanding in the observations that gave them a wider perspective to see an exploitable loophole or anomaly outside the building. Most of us just struggle to see all the connections between, let alone the individual blocks of the building.

[ME]

Me , I don't think a hi IQ would bring you a Wheel , but a Wheel will bring you a hi IQ.

Huh ? I didn't say that... (I think, or you meant yourself :-)
But I think at least 100 would be a minimum to puzzle one up.
And yes one simply needs more to be able to puzzle with codes and try to (re-)interpret meaning.

The most brilliant men in history with IQ's off the scale , non of them had any wheels .

Huh?
Neither had the less-brilliant, the average, the below average, and the stupid one: no one....
The only half-proof (by hear-say) we have is Bessler's, and still we don't know for sure if it qualifies as Perpetual Motion.

Perhaps someone below 100 could create perpetual motion, but unable to even comprehend 'causality' it would be just an unexplainable accidental event. It's not about some number (who cares anyway), if only for a measure in the ability to detect some patterns...

[daxwc]

I don’t think one has to have a high IQ to invent the wheel, but you might have to think out of the box.

I do believe one has to have a high IQ to tackle the codes, because codes are meant to be decoded but not cracked.

[raj]

Only those, who regardless of their mental prowess, dedicated in finding whys and hows of things.

Raj

[WaltzCee]

............................


The Obituary follows:

Here lies the USA Born 1776, Died 2016

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19; Romney: 29

Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000; Romney: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million; Romney: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2; Romney: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Romney won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Joseph Olson categorically denies ever saying any of those misinterpretations of the facts.

[Fletcher]

Interesting comment WaltzC. You call them misrepresentations.

I'm less interested in WHO said them (I don't know of Prof. Olsen).

I am interested IF the 'facts' presented as stand alone candidate comparisons etc are CORRECT or NOT ?!

I should think they would be of interest to all voting Americans in the context of that letter in which they were presented ?!