Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?

[rlortie]

WHEEE! here we go again!

I reactivated this hibernating thread out of respect for Fletcher! I felt that it was I who left it hanging high and dry November 5th 2014.

Here are the links that I used to educate myself and to give an idea of where I am going.

Pascel's (unit)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_%28unit%29

Mechanical fluid properties; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_mechanics

Fluid dynamics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_ ... e_equation

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/press ... _1354.html

With the combined knowledge present in these links I felt confident that I could indeed find the assumption loophole left in fluid dynamics stating that it is only assumed to abide to Newtons laws of motion.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Hey Jim,

Do you think you could shut up long enough for me to respond to Marchello, he is the only one who seems to be taking interest in the thread topic.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Marchello E. Edited for brevity:

Actually, after reading stuff like:
1/8" tempered laminated hardboard, PVC,and CPVC pipe.
It contains 73' (22.86 m) of 4" (10.16 cm) ID pipe.
All internal bushings, bearings and dis-placers are machined from UHMW plastic (Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene),
a structural heavy wall pipe with an outer pipe of 4.25 " (10.79) PVC,
a rotational accumulator with 105 turbine blades.
35 pair (70) dis-placers each capable of holding 113.09 cubic inches (1853.213 CC ) or (1.853 liter)

I thought: He's gone nuts! It's not something one buys daily at the shop, or unknowingly piles up in ones attic.

Maybe I am nuts! :-) If so I have had over three years to think about it.

The cost for UHMW plastic is enough to put a dent in any mans wallet. The prime directive is to make it water repellant, all wood and composite material waterproof. Low friction efficiency calls for self lubricating plastic. All moving parts are machined on my own lathe and mill. This is not something for those without the empirical skills and resources to attempt. There are 148 moving parts within the design including guide and thrust bearings, all hand machined. The plastic was ordered in 8' (2.4384 m) lengths.

Oh! and as for the 105 turbine blades; they are made out of Philippine mahogany.

I reiterate now that things appear to cool down, the revival of this thread is for those seeking alternatives in the pursuit of Bessler's unknown concept.

Fletcher did a great job of getting this thread started and I have involved myself with fluid designs for some time now. Newtonian fluids seek their own level, meaning no lifting of mass to replenish lost Pe. One side is empty the other full (almost) as it should be. Everything must turn within the turning part of the axle.

Being made from wood and wood composites, I do not expect a lengthy life span on this prototype. I will be happy it stands up long enough for verification at battelle northwest laboratories.
http://www.pnl.gov/business/tech_transfer.aspx

Ralph

[Mark]

Ralph,

My thought re: "temporary outriggers", was simply 'insurance against first-fill calamity'.

My comment re: "the little that you've revealed" was merely feedback, that despite my limited experience and knowledge, I get the gist of what you're doing and I'm following along with interest. I guess that I should have written it that way, sorry about that.

I just want you (and everyone else here for that matter) to know that I appreciate anyone's sharing whatever they feel is warranted. And please understand that I respect One's right to keep Intellectual Property proprietary. Except for Bessler, I am not after anyone's secrets. I have enough trouble trying to figure out and finish my own design.

Just because I'm a lowly globs-of-lead-on-sticks gravity wheel guy doesn't mean that I don't have respect for others or their approaches to finding success.

[I'm not saying that anyone accused me of anything, I'm just putting it out there for all to read.]

[Mark]

Fletcher,

My thanks to you for starting this thread.

I, for one, greatly appreciate it's being revived. Gave me cause to go back to page one and give it all a re-read. I still find that it [the on-topic content] is intriguing, informative and certainly a breath of fresh air amongst all the negativity that has permeated this board lately.

[ME]

The prime directive is to make it water repellant, all wood and composite material waterproof. Low friction efficiency calls for self lubricating plastic.

.
http://www.livescience.com/49515-water- ... erial.html

Being made from wood and wood composites, I do not expect a lengthy life span on this prototype.

With all that water turbulently smashing around, how rigid did you make it?

I'll just naively ask again: the next one will be transparent? :-D

I reiterate now that things appear to cool down, the revival of this thread is for those seeking alternatives in the pursuit of Bessler's unknown concept. Newtonian fluids seek their own level, meaning no lifting of mass to replenish lost Pe. One side is empty the other full (almost) as it should be. Everything must turn within the turning part of the axle.

When we combine this observation, with a part of the replies; one can conclude a thing or two.
"Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?"
Answer: Yes !

The often overlooked alternative concept of Bessler was his temper. In his attempt of gaining some status and reward, he eventually and unfortunately fell down. We can observe in this topic that children play among each others pillars with loud heavy clubs, hitting each others peacock tail. And in the meanwhile, no wheel appears around those moving goalposts.

So yes, an important propertiy of fluids is overlooked.

Marchello E.

[rlortie]

Marchello,

Rather tied up with personal affairs, so bear with me!

loved your closing hot link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Mi ... e_fluidity and find it noteworthy for all of us attempting something that consensus says "cannot be done"...

@ Mark, I will in due time start posting more and give more detail of the structural design, although using aviation style reinforcing it is not light.

I have purchased scales capable of measuring from grams to 300 pounds and plan on recording weights for "tare", (unladen), "curb" and "gross weight".

I am estimating, if the accumulator alone is 100% full I am looking at 524.8 pounds (238 kg) of water at 67 degrees F (19.4 C) making for one healthy flywheel.

It has always intrigued me how Bessler built a wheel 12 feet in diameter comparable to a one and 1/2 story building that I could walk under the axle without ducking, and power it with meager four pound weights. To my thinking,something is missing here!

Ralph

[ME]

Distractions happen, take care..

[rlortie]

As posted in thread: "The Importance of Raising Weights"

Add: also, is the third dimension important to your design? I am a big believer that a 2d equivalent exists for any 3rd dimension mechanism.

It is very important in my design! Newtonian fluids hold properties to equalize, directions force holds no boundaries.

As a 3d mechanism can be mapped onto 2d, there are forces in 3d which can not.

Totally agree and have proven that the "z" plane can be utilized using molecular mass and Cf.

Such as some force vector pointing in the z-direction while not effecting torque on the wheel and -due to some yet unknown rotation- is able to be applied when needed.

That way some leverage, velocity(KE), and thus potential can 'hide' in the z-plane; where in a pure XY-plane those vectors would be zero.

Oh! So well stated, wish I would have written this. Nature and gravity holds no vectors zero. I will be leaving on the outgoing tide and its three dimensional vectors.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Be advised that I am moving the conversation from the thread: MT 127, MT 128, MT 129. http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... highlight=

Trevor L. W.

True: it will not work as shown! Yet there are other ways to approach a latch and lock system. Most are aware of the levers and getting maximum leverage opening and closing the resevoirs for optimum position.

keeping it in the proper compartments for utilization of molecular mass can be achieved, but one must look other places than Bessler!

Quote:
It will never be built (cost and time) because of the numbers of reservoirs and levers needed before there is a positive gain, between 16 and 32 to get to a winning ratio.


Yes it will be built! in fact it is over 60% completed as of this posting. Instead of 16 to 32 reservoirs, I am using 70. Each with a displacement of 113.09 cubic inches (1.853 liter). That makes for a total displacement of 7,916.3 cubic inches (129,724.72 liter)...

Quote:
I have decided to get may act together and prove the foundation of my confidence that gravity and buoyancy devices can close the loop, and it there for was never impossible.


I am with you on this, although I do not use the term 'buoyancy", my build is more by displacement creating OB, relying on gravity. No latches or locks required, everything is asymmetrical.

Ralph

Hi ME,

I do not see that compression system working for either buoyancy or fluid weight. When Bessler used gas (air) as buoyancy he had a water line on his drawings, like B on MT 114. http://www.orffyre.com/MTHard114.jpg

Hi Ralph,

are you expecting a heat gain, in a sort of fluid weight balanced compression system, under its own fluid weight? I have often wondered what you are up to, and cannot figure it out, please feel free to post more information.

Ralph, I am interested in any new line of inquiry, even more so coming from you, given your impressive track record.

I can see fluid usage at MT076 up to MT123, but not so much evidence of fluids (and thus buoyancy) for the designs of MT125 and above (unsure about MT124)
Meaning the MT127(etc)-bellows could be designed to work like an air-spring cushioning/prohibiting sudden weight motions; making it essentially part of the MT056 to MT061 series.

---
Ralph, thanks for the status-update; am still curious about that self-propelling water-repellent washing-machine.

[rlortie]

Hi Trevor Lyn,

Marchello describes my design as a: "self-propelling water-repellent washing-machine"... That is because I have kept him a little more updated than what I have released here on the forum.

Yes my machine,if it works will by consensus produce heat. It is exothermic, not unlike other forms of energy utilized to perform work.

Having over 20 years experience in hydro-electric has taught me a lot about fluid dynamics, included but not limited to the two most popular turbine types. The "Kaplan" and Francis both have things in common yet differ in physical properties.

The working head of water is low so large flow rates are allowed in the Kaplan Turbine. The water enters the turbine through the guide vanes which are aligned such as to give the flow a suitable degree of swirl determined according to the rotor of the turbine. The flow from guide vanes pass through the curved passage which forces the radial flow to axial direction with the initial swirl imparted by the inlet guide vanes which is now in the form of free vortex. This complete system is better known as a rotary accumulator.

I have simply left out the guide vanes and installed 105 axial vanes accounting for 639 square inches (0.4122572 meter2). These blades not unlike a torque converter in an automatic transmission disperse the fluid to the perimeter. There is no "Head" of fluid to raise as it is symmetrical with the circumference of the machine,

After much in depth research of works by Daniel Bernoulli, Leonhard Euler, and William Kendrick, I find that to date, It is only "assumed" that the laws and theories regarding fluid dynamics fall within Newtons Principia. I for one do not believe they do!

Are you aware that a Newtonian fluid such as water with its cohesion properties,when directed into and through a Bernoulli draft tube will and can exceed the velocity of gravity? If there is a hole or cavity, as it seeks its own level, it will pull more water with it.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Trevor L W wrote:

Hi Ralph,

I am still not getting it, this is how I see it without all the information.

IMO, I cannot see how you can get over the column of water effect coursed be gravity. If there is no head of fluid, and the system is sealed then when rotated there would be the lagging behind of the fluid. The Bernoulli draft tube could accelerate the fluid in sections like through a turbine, but there is no gain in kinetic energy, because of the lag and overall flow resistance moving again the gravity vectors, (column of fluid effect) so the fluid momentum would be lower than the devices momentum. IMO I do not see how the fluid could drive the device, when the fluid would need to be accelerated just to keep up with the device.

I will have to wait and see all the information to get a better understanding of it.

[rlortie]

Congratulations Marchello! You are the first to bring up the finer points to collaborate over my design. You win a kudos for pointing the way to "Navier-Stokes" and the conundrum it can cause.

Quote:
In physics, the Navier–Stokes equations /nævˈjeɪ stoʊks/, named after Claude-Louis Navier and George Gabriel Stokes, describe the motion of viscous fluid substances. These balance equations arise from applying Newton's second law to fluid motion, together with the assumption that the stress in the fluid is the sum of a diffusing viscous term (proportional to the gradient of velocity) and a pressure term—hence describing viscous flow. The main difference between them and the simpler Euler equations for inviscid flow is that Navier–Stokes equations also in the Froude limit (no external field) are not conservation equations, but rather a dissipative system, in the sense that they cannot be put into the quasilinear homogeneous form:


Quote:
The Navier–Stokes equations are also of great interest in a purely mathematical sense. Somewhat surprisingly, given their wide range of practical uses, it has not yet been proven that in three dimensions solutions always exist (existence), or that if they do exist, then they do not contain any singularity (they are smooth). These are called the Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness problems. The Clay Mathematics Institute has called this one of the seven most important open problems in mathematics and has offered a US$1,000,000 prize for a solution or a counter-example.


The bottom line of my contention is the fact that we have an obvious statement here; leaving us with 'assumptions" that fluid dynamics are confined to Newtons laws of motion and his principia in part. Not unlike Tesla and his smooth faced turbine, I believe there is room for farther exploitation!

Allow me time and I will address your post regarding;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dim ... omachinery

Ralph

[ME]

"Kudos", thanks!

Basically "pressure" is already a form of stress propagating at the speed of sound through a medium, conservation of momentum should be applicable - even when averaged over a large volume.
The issue with turbulent water is when pressure waves collide and they cause a matter-state-change (like a spring under angled tension suddenly jumps off) and dense areas turn into gas having violent effects when it implodes again due to the same pressure.
As a laymen, I could simply say those directed pressure waves are converted into a diffusing high(er)-frequency/low-amplitude form called heat; a way of sharing momentum with the environment but loosing the applicable form (entropy).

Why could this be beneficial?

About Price:
As far as I know (and able to comprehend) Navier-Stokes can't handle those mentioned situations where one basically averages the behavior of (let's say) pinhead sized volumes, and doesn't relate to the accurate water-models which currently only go as far as a few hundred molecules for a handful of femto-seconds...
I guess no solution will be found without introducing probability formulas which surpass the complex forms found within quantum mechanics - as if NS wasn't annoying enough.

Marchello E.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Ralph,

its Okay with me!